Milk

[Jane Gillett]

Are we content, as a country, to move towards a stage where we allow ALL
our milk to be imported as a result of OUR allowing our dairy industry to
die?

Will customers complain when the UK dairy industry reduces below a level
needed to protect us against being held to ransom by importers? Perhaps UK
customers will willingly accept the higher prices with a smile and never
complain. Will they also accept the knock-on prices these increases will
bring to other milk based foods?

Alternatively. Is the customer willing to pay more than the
"Loss-Leade-Prices" set by the smkts to get them into the store so that
they will buy the store's other goods?

Or.

Will we hear any complaints about "the awful price of milk" when the UK
milk industry has been reduced so much that importers can take advantage of
a captive market with impunity?

Jane

[Steve Slatcher]

Supermarkets have to tread a fine line. In 2007 they were fined for
keeping milk prices high in order to pay farmers better.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7132108.stm

[graham]

Post by Jane Gillett
Are we content, as a country, to move towards a stage where we allow ALL
our milk to be imported as a result of OUR allowing our dairy industry to
die?
Will customers complain when the UK dairy industry reduces below a level
needed to protect us against being held to ransom by importers? Perhaps UK
customers will willingly accept the higher prices with a smile and never
complain. Will they also accept the knock-on prices these increases will
bring to other milk based foods?
Alternatively. Is the customer willing to pay more than the
"Loss-Leade-Prices" set by the smkts to get them into the store so that
they will buy the store's other goods?
Or.
Will we hear any complaints about "the awful price of milk" when the UK
milk industry has been reduced so much that importers can take advantage of
a captive market with impunity?
Jane

In Canada dairy farmers are highly protected, much to the ire of the US
and to the NZ dairy industry. Dairy farmers have a strict production
quota and if you want to start a dairy operation, you first must buy
quota from another dairy farmer for *BIG* bucks.
Graham

[Brian Reay]

Post by Jane Gillett
Are we content, as a country, to move towards a stage where we allow ALL
our milk to be imported as a result of OUR allowing our dairy industry to
die?
Will customers complain when the UK dairy industry reduces below a level
needed to protect us against being held to ransom by importers? Perhaps UK
customers will willingly accept the higher prices with a smile and never
complain. Will they also accept the knock-on prices these increases will
bring to other milk based foods?
Alternatively. Is the customer willing to pay more than the
"Loss-Leade-Prices" set by the smkts to get them into the store so that
they will buy the store's other goods?
Or.
Will we hear any complaints about "the awful price of milk" when the UK
milk industry has been reduced so much that importers can take advantage of
a captive market with impunity?
Jane

I've certainly no wish to see UK farmers go under but, like so many other
things, why is milk from Europe so much cheaper ?

After all, it has to be transported, labour can't be a huge factor,
presumably the cows produce the same amount more or less etc.

It isn't just milk, go into a French supermarket ( not a budget one) and
the fruit and veg are far cheaper than here, plus the quality is far
better. AND their price includes VAT, to get a fair comparison you need to
reduce their prices by 20% (possibly 25%, their VAT may be higher). Meat is
also cheaper, as are dairy products.

Go to a French market and the prices are unbelievable.

I am less than convinced that our farmers are struggling quite as much as
they claim.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Jane Gillett
Are we content, as a country, to move towards a stage where we allow ALL
our milk to be imported as a result of OUR allowing our dairy industry to
die?
Will customers complain when the UK dairy industry reduces below a level
needed to protect us against being held to ransom by importers? Perhaps UK
customers will willingly accept the higher prices with a smile and never
complain. Will they also accept the knock-on prices these increases will
bring to other milk based foods?
Alternatively. Is the customer willing to pay more than the
"Loss-Leade-Prices" set by the smkts to get them into the store so that
they will buy the store's other goods?
Or.
Will we hear any complaints about "the awful price of milk" when the UK
milk industry has been reduced so much that importers can take advantage of
a captive market with impunity?
Jane

I've certainly no wish to see UK farmers go under but, like so many other
things, why is milk from Europe so much cheaper ?
After all, it has to be transported, labour can't be a huge factor,
presumably the cows produce the same amount more or less etc.
It isn't just milk, go into a French supermarket ( not a budget one) and
the fruit and veg are far cheaper than here, plus the quality is far
better. AND their price includes VAT, to get a fair comparison you need to
reduce their prices by 20% (possibly 25%, their VAT may be higher). Meat is
also cheaper, as are dairy products.
Go to a French market and the prices are unbelievable.
I am less than convinced that our farmers are struggling quite as much as
they claim.

Good points.
Perhaps someone with inside knowledge will provide relevant factors.
For Europe:
. Yes, we are all theoretically subject to the same EU regulations but are
they all policed equally? Some years ago I was talking to a small farmer
who moved to France because he found he could make a better living there.
The regulations were the same, as I said, but when enforcement was the
province of the local mayor who is an elected official in a rural
area........
. Transport. How much effect does distance make once the milk is in a
refridgerated tanker? Is the driver/hours limitation enforced throughout
Europe?
. How is animal welfare viewed in other parts of Europe compared with UK?

Why is the price paid to UK dairy farmers significantly lower than
immediately previous years?

And, I admit fault, I spoke of the smkts as the factors causing price
reductions. They are not the only factors - far from it. All the major milk
buyers have responsibility.

The fact still remains that as long as the price paid to farmers for milk
is less than production costs there will be less farmers going into dairy
in future and more leaving as soon as it is practical to do so - turn
around in agricultural worlds is not instant; you are talking years. Is it
all because of Russia not buying EU milk?

I buy my milk from a local farming business and have done so for many
years; I almost certainly pay more for it than if I bought it in the local
smkt. I also buy cheese from local producers. Admittedly haven't got my
butter purchases organised to local supplies yet. If milk went to short
supply generally and the general public turned to the business I use taking
up all their supplies, would it be reasonable to ask the local business to
put milk aside for me?

Cheers,
Jane.

[graham]

Post by Jane Gillett
The fact still remains that as long as the price paid to farmers for milk
is less than production costs

Jane, this doesn't make sense! Any normal businessman, which is what a
farmer is, would get rid of his herd pronto.
Graham

[Jane Gillett]

Post by graham

Post by Jane Gillett
The fact still remains that as long as the price paid to farmers for milk
is less than production costs

Jane, this doesn't make sense! Any normal businessman, which is what a
farmer is, would get rid of his herd pronto.
Graham

In many ways I would agree.

But.

Pronto doesn't really figure in agric timescales; they go by seasons and
years. Get rid of a herd - "get rid" of a set of animals which are the
result of many years and generations of breeding. They are your expertise
but there is a limit to the number of herdman's posts on the larger farms;
and I've read that smkts have said they have found farmers adaptable as
staff could you raise a family on a shelf-stacker's wage?

You may sell them to a larger farmer who presumeably is "more efficient";
you may kill them - not "high value beef" - more "pie quality" (nothing the
worse for that). I'm of the mind that it was a BIG mistake to split the
cattle industry into two - beef and dairy; but that's another topic.

Then, having got rid of the animals one way or another, there's the land.
Again,
. a larger farmer would probably take it for his business (it's probably
your family home, can you afford an alternative on what you can earn? The
local authority won't house you - you made yourself homeless).
. Rent out the pasture; the quickest solution; no idea what it will bring.
. Grow a crop.
- What grows well in your a area?
- If you are set up for maintaining pasture you may not have the gear to
maintain the land as needed for a crop and that is expensive;
- How flat is the land? If hilly, arable is not very practical.
- How about installing solar panels? If suitable position you should get
a developer to get into business with if there's a suitable a suitable line
to feed into; might not be popular locally - people like to have "Patchwork
Agriculture" around them even if they are not prepared to pay the price
local food production costs but that, too, is another topic.

That'll do for now. Thanks for your response
Jane

[Steve Slatcher]

Post by graham

Post by Jane Gillett
The fact still remains that as long as the price paid to farmers for milk
is less than production costs

Jane, this doesn't make sense! Any normal businessman, which is what a
farmer is, would get rid of his herd pronto.
Graham

I suspect he is hoping that the market will improve if he holds out a
bit longer. That would apply to other businesses too, wouldn't it?

[graham]

Post by Steve Slatcher

Post by graham

Post by Jane Gillett
The fact still remains that as long as the price paid to farmers for milk
is less than production costs

Jane, this doesn't make sense! Any normal businessman, which is what a
farmer is, would get rid of his herd pronto.
Graham

I suspect he is hoping that the market will improve if he holds out a
bit longer. That would apply to other businesses too, wouldn't it?

Holding out can lead to bankruptcy.
I hear Canadian wheat farmers making the same bleat that their cost of
production is higher than their income. There is only so much whining
that one can take! They constantly make out that they despise all forms
of government interference, but they are the first in line for
government handouts!
Graham

[Nunya Bidnits]

Post by graham

Post by Steve Slatcher

Post by graham

Post by Jane Gillett
The fact still remains that as long as the price paid to farmers for milk
is less than production costs

Jane, this doesn't make sense! Any normal businessman, which is what a
farmer is, would get rid of his herd pronto.
Graham

I suspect he is hoping that the market will improve if he holds out a
bit longer. That would apply to other businesses too, wouldn't it?

Holding out can lead to bankruptcy.
I hear Canadian wheat farmers making the same bleat that their cost of
production is higher than their income. There is only so much whining
that one can take! They constantly make out that they despise all forms
of government interference, but they are the first in line for
government handouts!
Graham

I've been a whore for gubmint handouts for most of my life.

You sound almost un-American!

MartyB

[Malcolm Loades]

In message

Post by Brian Reay
I've certainly no wish to see UK farmers go under but, like so many other
things, why is milk from Europe so much cheaper ?
After all, it has to be transported, labour can't be a huge factor,
presumably the cows produce the same amount more or less etc.
It isn't just milk, go into a French supermarket ( not a budget one) and
the fruit and veg are far cheaper than here, plus the quality is far
better. AND their price includes VAT, to get a fair comparison you need to
reduce their prices by 20% (possibly 25%, their VAT may be higher). Meat is
also cheaper, as are dairy products.

There are four rates of VAT in France, food is taxed at 5.5% so the
before VAT price is 5.2% less, nothing like the 20 - 25% you speculate

Post by Brian Reay
Go to a French market and the prices are unbelievable.

More so than a few years ago when a pound bought €1.25 Currently a
pound buys €1.41 which effectively makes goods nearly 11.5% cheaper
than before.

Malcolm

[kat]

Post by Malcolm Loades
In message

Post by Brian Reay
I've certainly no wish to see UK farmers go under but, like so many
other things, why is milk from Europe so much cheaper ?
After all, it has to be transported, labour can't be a huge factor,
presumably the cows produce the same amount more or less etc.
It isn't just milk, go into a French supermarket ( not a budget one)
and the fruit and veg are far cheaper than here, plus the quality is
far better. AND their price includes VAT, to get a fair comparison
you need to reduce their prices by 20% (possibly 25%, their VAT may
be higher). Meat is also cheaper, as are dairy products.

There are four rates of VAT in France, food is taxed at 5.5% so the
before VAT price is 5.2% less, nothing like the 20 - 25% you speculate

Post by Brian Reay
Go to a French market and the prices are unbelievable.

More so than a few years ago when a pound bought ?1.25 Currently a
pound buys ?1.41 which effectively makes goods nearly 11.5% cheaper
than before.
Malcolm

We have just returned from a self catering holiday in France. We shopped in
several different supermarkets of varying sizes. There was plenty of fruit,
but a smaller range of meat and veg ( and the quality of the veg wasn't
great in some cases ), on the whole, and the prices didn't strike me as
being cheap.