food bank funding refused

Post by Mike.. . . .
The government has been accused of putting "anti-European ideology"
before the needs of the most deprived people in society after Britain
rejected help from a European Union fund to help subsidise the costs
of food banks.
David Cameron, who was heavily criticised recently after Michael Gove
blamed the rise in food banks on financial mismanagement by families,
faced pressure to embark on a U-turn to allow EU funds to be spent on
feeding the poor.
<http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/17/government-under-fire-eu-funding-food-banks>

Is this food or political, I wonder?
Assuming food, I have a few comments after a quick look at the website
specified. There are more, particularly if you follow some of the links
given on that site but I won't go into them here.

Specified website viz
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/17/government-under-fire-eu-funding-food-banks

A DWP spokesman, re the said fund viz European Aid to the Most Deprived
,:
We aren't losing money any funding the UK receives from the Fund for
European Aid to the Most Deprived will be taken off our structural fund
allocation. .
And
British officials rejected EU funding for food banks, which could have
reached £22m for Britain, on the grounds that individual member states are
best placed to take charge of such funding.
And
It [specification of how part of a grant is used] therefore questions
whether the commission's proposal is justified in accordance with the
principle of subsidiarity."
I'd say that there is a debate to be had there. Maybe not welcome here.

Cove - financial mismanagement by families:
In some, yes, some no. Some families consider keeping their children up to
date in things like IT, equivalent to their peers in school, is as
important for the children's self-esteem as items other people would
consider as essentials. Others would say that a home lifestyle as extensive
as those who have private good incomes is also an essential for children's
self image.

Richard Howitt, a Labour MEP :
The only conclusion is that Conservative anti-European ideology is being
put before the needs of the most destitute and deprived in our society
Not specifically anti-EU IMO; just a disagreement over one particular topic.
Has the fund got a Food Aid tag on it? (Chris Mould, Trussell Trust ).
If it has then it surely has to be spent on food aid regardless of who is
taking decisions on the administration.

It is not clear to me whether the money in question has been designated for
food or not.

Sorry about the formatting; taken from a different editor. Roll on
international standards, I say.

Cheers
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-02 15:34:32 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
British officials rejected EU funding for food banks, which could have
reached £22m for Britain, on the grounds that individual member states are
best placed to take charge of such funding.

but of course we wont actually do the funding.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jimmy Dawkins

2014-01-03 10:42:13 UTC

X-No-Archive:Yes

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

"British officials rejected EU funding for food banks, which could have
reached £22m for Britain, on the grounds that individual member states are
best placed to take charge of such funding. "

but of course we wont actually do the funding.

....and here is, is it not, the nirvanic dream of the 'Big Society' ....?
People are referred to Foodbanks.... you don't just turn up. They are
referred by varying organisations that 'brush across' these people (..and
their children, perhaps, more to the point) in their jobs and vocations.
Doctors, social care managers, CAB, etc.

It's fair to say that those receiving Food handouts are almost certainly in
need of it. Driven to the situation they are in because of varying
government policies, by severe austerity cuts, unfair taxes (..I'm thinking
the so called bedroom tax), by severe (..and unjust) sanctioning actioned
through DWP and impacting job seekers and benefit claimants (who may find
themselves in such need for absolutely no fault of their own) for turning up
(sometimes as nonsensical as ) 5 minutes late for signing, by double booking
claimants to re-insertion interviews at the very same time as they are due
to sign as seeking work - thereby becoming sanctioned for not signing, and
more.....I know of numbers of people - one who has been continually
sanctioned for the past two years...!! - that have befallen this
disgraceful practice.

Anyway, the Big Society now supports these people: charity, you and me by
gifting money or even food stuffs at collection points.

These people might otherwise die swiftly or over a longer period from
malnutrition and related illnesses. But the Big Society is standing tall
and taking up the challenge.... unfunded.

Our LA made two £1,000 donations during December... it cannot continue
however to put public funds this way at the expense of other needy causes.
There is not enough money (witness the brutal Revenue Support Grant funding
cuts to LA's across the country) to continue this in any sustainable way.

Yet here we are in 2014, in the UK, with *some* people not able to feed
themselves. The Big Society really is....well....BS.

It was a con trick, it is a con trick and it will remain a con trick for
evermore. *it* is also unable to replace and/or support the coming
decimation (coming? ...it's arrived in many parts of the country) of local
services that all of us of a certain age have grown to understand as
perfectly normal occurences and important for our communities.. much of it
is about to go under the weight of grant funding cuts as LA's struggle to
create legal budgets.

The Foodbanks are a timely and insightful evidence for the start of the
decline of much we take for granted.

Maybe it's time for repeat showings of the War Time kitchen programmes and
cook books that strived to educate people in ways of providing nutritional
meals in times of extreme hardship and shortages...meals from strange
substitutions and rationed produce.

Poverty is really another form of rationing after all.....

JD

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 11:24:10 UTC

Following a post by Jimmy Dawkins

Post by Jimmy Dawkins
It was a con trick, it is a con trick and it will remain a con trick for
evermore. *it* is also unable to replace and/or support the coming
decimation (coming? ...it's arrived in many parts of the country) of local
services that all of us of a certain age have grown to understand as
perfectly normal occurences and important for our communities.. much of it
is about to go under the weight of grant funding cuts as LA's struggle to
create legal budgets.

the Big Society is clearly a contrick, anything to avoid funding
services from taxation, lets just hope nice people do it for us
instead. But the contrick is bigger than that. The whole extreme
austerity measures, sold as essential, are viewed by all who
understand (FT, IMF) , as excessive and ideological and not likely to
end even with recovery (*not* proof it worked - slowest ever recovery)
starting.

The claim we can fund the food banks more efficiently locally is
laughable, do the EU turn up in person? Or do they merely transfer
funds to those at the coalface, just as local or central govt would.

But certainly we could do with help in the actual cooking side, how
many poor people utilise things like dried beans efficiently? So
theres a grain of truth to whichever tory bastard said its all down to
bad management (the old "the undeserving poor" argument essential to
the conciences of the comfortable but selfish).

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-03 13:43:59 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
The claim we can fund the food banks more efficiently locally is
laughable,

That wasn't the argument.

It was, that UK can use the (same) EU funding more efficiently in other
ways than foodbanks.So, what the UK govt declined, was not, the funding.
It declined having the EU/Brussels know best and decide where/how EU
funding should be allocated to best help the needy in the UK.

Which is exactly what posters here have been bleating for.

It astonishes me that chattering classes gaily chant
the mantra of thirdworld charities they support, such as "give a man a
fish and he's hungry again tomorrow. Teach a man to fish and you feed
him for a lifetime" yet they can't see the same principal applies to the
mess this country is in. What a political OUTRAGE it is in such a
wealthy country, to fob off the desperate with foodbank handouts,
instead of fixing the underlying causes of their plight, many of them
bureaucratic. It comes pretty damn close to "Let them eat cake".

What next? Reviving the workhouse to solve the housing problem?

Janet.

White Spirit

2014-01-03 13:47:36 UTC

Post by Janet
What next? Reviving the workhouse to solve the housing problem?

No; revive the Workhouse in order to solve the problem of the
deliberately unemployed and their ability to procreate.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 14:11:18 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Janet
What a political OUTRAGE it is in such a
wealthy country, to fob off the desperate with foodbank handouts,
instead of fixing the underlying causes of their plight, many of them
bureaucratic

The govt have no intention of fixing underlying problems like zero
hours contracts. In the meantime till we have a govt with some decency
foodbanks would help.

--
Mike... . . . .

graham

2014-01-03 14:39:35 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

The govt have no intention of fixing underlying problems like zero
hours contracts.

I heard about these during my visit in September. How many are on these
abominations?
Graham

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 14:58:13 UTC

Following a post by graham

Post by graham
I heard about these during my visit in September. How many are on these
abominations?

millions it seems:-
<http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/08/zero-hours-contracts-unite-survey>

--
Mike... . . . .

graham

2014-01-03 19:12:42 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by graham

Post by graham
I heard about these during my visit in September. How many are on these
abominations?

millions it seems:-
<http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/08/zero-hours-contracts-unite-survey>
--

Add to that the disgraceful way that companies like Amazon.co.uk use
outsourcing companies to get around the labour laws.
Graham

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 14:28:35 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
The claim we can fund the food banks more efficiently locally is
laughable,

That wasn't the argument.

"But British officials rejected EU funding for food banks, which could
have reached £22m for Britain, on the grounds that individual member
states are best placed to take charge of such funding.

A document from the Department of Work and Pensions explaining
Britain's position, which has been leaked to the Guardian, says: "The
UK government does not support the proposal for a regulation on the
fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived. It believes that measures
of this type are better and >>>more efficiently<<<< delivered by
individual member states through their own social programmes, and
their regional and local authorities, who are best placed to identify
and meet the needs of deprived people in their countries and
communities."

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-03 17:11:54 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
The claim we can fund the food banks more efficiently locally is
laughable,

That wasn't the argument.

"But British officials rejected EU funding for food banks, which could
have reached £22m for Britain, on the grounds that individual member
states are best placed to take charge of such funding.
A document from the Department of Work and Pensions explaining
Britain's position, which has been leaked to the Guardian, says: "The
UK government does not support the proposal for a regulation on the
fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived. It believes that measures
of this type are better and >>>more efficiently<<<< delivered by
individual member states through their own social programmes, and
their regional and local authorities, who are best placed to identify
and meet the needs of deprived people in their countries and
communities."

and you'll note, that statement makes no mention of funding
foodbanks.

It goes on

"A DWP spokesperson said: "We aren't losing money ? any funding the UK
receives from the Fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived will be
taken off our structural fund allocation. Instead we will use our
structural funds to support local initiatives to train and support
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

disadvantaged people into work.
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

We have not yet decided how the €3.5m euro pot (£2.9m) will be spent ?
food aid is just one of the options for spending the money."

Janet,

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 17:27:12 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
A document from the Department of Work and Pensions explaining
Britain's position, which has been leaked to the Guardian, says: "The
UK government does not support the proposal for a regulation on the
fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived. It believes that measures
of this type are better and >>>more efficiently<<<< delivered by
individual member states through their own social programmes, and
their regional and local authorities, who are best placed to identify
and meet the needs of deprived people in their countries and
communities."

and you'll note, that statement makes no mention of funding
foodbanks.

you claimed the govt was not saying efficiency was an issue. In
context the foodbanks proposal is clearly relevant

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-03 19:03:31 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
A document from the Department of Work and Pensions explaining
UK government does not support the proposal for a regulation on the
fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived. It believes that measures
of this type are better and >>>more efficiently<<<< delivered by
individual member states through their own social programmes, and
their regional and local authorities, who are best placed to identify
and meet the needs of deprived people in their countries and
communities."

and you'll note, that statement makes no mention of funding
foodbanks.

you claimed the govt was not saying efficiency was an issue.

You misread, try again.

"> The claim we can fund the food banks more efficiently locally is

Post by Mike.. . . .
laughable,

That wasn't the argument.

It was, that UK can use the (same) EU funding more efficiently in other
ways than foodbanks." /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Janet.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-04 09:51:36 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

and you'll note, that statement makes no mention of funding
foodbanks.

you claimed the govt was not saying efficiency was an issue.

You misread, try again.
"> The claim we can fund the food banks more efficiently locally is

Post by Mike.. . . .
laughable,

That wasn't the argument.
It was, that UK can use the (same) EU funding more efficiently in other
ways than foodbanks." /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Janet.

. It believes that measures

Post by Mike.. . . .
of this type are better and >>>more efficiently<<<< delivered by
individual member states through their own social programmes

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-04 09:59:58 UTC

and another thing.. . . .

Post by Janet
You misread, try again.

to explain, you need to look beyond the actual words of official
statements designed to deceive, what the tories actually mean is:-

"we are not interested in helping lazy scum with handouts, our
preferred method is incentives to the rich to generate economic
activity, in addition we all loathe the EU and have no intention of
having them point out our failure to protect the vulnerable"

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-05 11:20:36 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
and another thing.. . . .

Post by Janet
You misread, try again.

to explain, you need to look beyond the actual words of official
statements designed to deceive, what the tories actually mean is:-
"we are not interested in helping lazy scum with handouts,

"And all the people who are in need of food have got to that situation
through their own stupid/lazy/sinful/anythingelseinconvenient actions so
are not our responsibility."

Post by Mike.. . . .
our
preferred method is incentives to the rich to generate economic
activity,

Activity which, of course, depends on cheap labour and you won't get that
if you make working uneconomic by giving benefits you can live on.

Post by Mike.. . . .
in addition we all loathe the EU and have no intention of
having them point out our failure to protect the vulnerable"

Not sure about that; except that we don't like being told what to do unless
it is useful reinforcement of what we had in mind anyway.

Cheers
jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-05 14:54:49 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
our
preferred method is incentives to the rich to generate economic
activity,

Activity which, of course, depends on cheap labour and you won't get that
if you make working uneconomic by giving benefits you can live on.

either that or its just a lie, after all they argue that the rich need
incentivising by giving them tax cuts and bigger bonuses but they
never argue that for the poor. More the opposite.
But certainly the minimum wage should be above normal benefits all
things being equal.

BTW you might be interested in news of the wonderful Patterson at
Environment, latest weeze:-

"offset" destruction of ancient woodlands when in the way of
"progress" by planting some saplings in a field, obviously "ancient"
is beyond his comprehension (in context I suspect it is).

Add that to being climate change sceptic who is cutting 1500 flood
prevention posts as the west country sinks (are you OK?), pro fox hunt
reinstatement, pro badger cull, which is costing £4000 a badger even
according to the Daily Wail and appears to be a complete failure.....

Wonderful.

--
Mike... . . . .

allegoricus

2014-01-05 16:57:48 UTC

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 09:59:58 +0000, Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
and another thing.. . . .

Post by Janet
You misread, try again.

to explain, you need to look beyond the actual words of official
statements designed to deceive, what the tories actually mean is:-
"we are not interested in helping lazy scum with handouts, our
preferred method is incentives to the rich to generate economic
activity, in addition we all loathe the EU and have no intention of
having them point out our failure to protect the vulnerable"

With so much wealth having been created by what amounts to
speculation, there's fat chance of any trickle-down effect (which used
to be the argument for encouraging wealth creation.
After all, there's only so many cars you'll want to use, only so many
cleaning ladies you'll need, only so many TV's you'll want (unless
you're an MP).

--
Peter

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-05 17:17:20 UTC

Following a post by allegoricus

Post by allegoricus
, there's fat chance of any trickle-down effect (which used
to be the argument for encouraging wealth creation.

have they dropped that? I suppose its only plausible for a few years.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-03 10:52:03 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

but of course we wont actually do the funding.

In one sense we won't - not UK govt intention but in another......

I suggest we will, perhaps a few stages back. We transfer money to the EU
and the EU splits the money from all members (after admin costs) and sends
it back to its members to be used for purposes it designates. AISI it's a
way of forcing member states to spend money on things they wouldn't spend
it on if left to their own devices. In this case, it seems that the current
UK govt doesn't think it's worth spending that amount on feeding people but
would rather spend it on increasing employment (please see last para).

Where the govt spends our taxes is always going to be a matter of
"discussion and dispute". I'm not 100% pro-EU as you might have noticed but
I'm for it when it's forcing our govt to do something that I want and UK
govt doesn't. In this case it would be good to do both ie feed the poor AND
create employment although that may not assist UK's future amongst the
ruling forces (see below).

An unworthy thought sneaks across my brain. Thinking back through the
admittedly small amount of history I know (I had a dispute with my history
teacher and didn't take much notice after that) ISTM that all the powerful
empires had, shall we say "low income classes" - a large "underclass" which
could be made to provide services at rock-bottom cost. Maybe our govt is
reinstating that system in order to make UK a force to be reckoned with
again.

Cheers
jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 14:19:17 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
AISI it's a
way of forcing member states to spend money on things they wouldn't spend
it on if left to their own devices. In this case, it seems that the current
UK govt doesn't think it's worth spending that amount on feeding people but
would rather spend it on increasing employment (please see last para).

or actually tax cuts for the rich

Post by Jane Gillett
Where the govt spends our taxes is always going to be a matter of
"discussion and dispute". I'm not 100% pro-EU as you might have noticed but
I'm for it when it's forcing our govt to do something that I want and UK
govt doesn't. In this case it would be good to do both ie feed the poor AND
create employment although that may not assist UK's future amongst the
ruling forces (see below).

I don't think you can logically approve/disapprove of the EU on the
basis of current policy. Should I disapprove of UK because I
disapprove of current policy?

Post by Jane Gillett
An unworthy thought sneaks across my brain. Thinking back through the
admittedly small amount of history I know (I had a dispute with my history
teacher and didn't take much notice after that) ISTM that all the powerful
empires had, shall we say "low income classes" - a large "underclass" which
could be made to provide services at rock-bottom cost. Maybe our govt is
reinstating that system in order to make UK a force to be reckoned with
again.

We *alone* will never be a force to be reckoned with again, I don't
think its about empire, its about profitability. The Tory party is
there to disenpower ordinary people to the advantage of capitalists.
Simple as that. They get away with it by getting people to turn their
fear and hate on immigrants, foreigners and other even poorer groups
like benefits claimants.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-04 09:13:07 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

or actually tax cuts for the rich

Certainly seems that way.

I don't think you can logically approve/disapprove of the EU on the
basis of current policy. Should I disapprove of UK because I
disapprove of current policy?

Logically you are right but it is one component in all the issues which add
up to my assessment of Eu membership for UK.

We *alone* will never be a force to be reckoned with again, I don't
think its about empire, its about profitability.

Precisely. If we can't be financially profitable as a nation we won't be
worthy of consideration.

Post by Mike.. . . .
The Tory party is
there to disenpower ordinary people to the advantage of capitalists.

You got it.

Post by Mike.. . . .
Simple as that. They get away with it by getting people to turn their
fear and hate on immigrants, foreigners and other even poorer groups
like benefits claimants.

A long-recognised tactic indeed. However, I don't find that hatred of
immigrants is in any way limited to right-wing people.

Cheers
jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-04 10:44:32 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
or actually tax cuts for the rich

Certainly seems that way.

I don't think you can logically approve/disapprove of the EU on the
basis of current policy. Should I disapprove of UK because I
disapprove of current policy?

Logically you are right but it is one component in all the issues which add
up to my assessment of Eu membership for UK.

It probably has been for me because the EU has tended to have more
vision than some of our local governments.

Talking of "local" govts and "vision" and listening to the news I hear
that complete idiot Pickles is again trying to force councils (they
mostly rejected his funding last time knowing that the EU has set the
wider agenda of reducing landfill) to collect landfill every week,
does the man understand nothing? Why does anybody think, as he does,
there is a human right to a weekly landfill collection, what is his
point? Our (tory) council takes compostable, glass, paper, tins,
plastic every week and the residual landfill once a fourtnight, having
ignored the curry eating leviathan's hectoring.

We *alone* will never be a force to be reckoned with again, I don't
think its about empire, its about profitability.

Precisely. If we can't be financially profitable as a nation we won't be
worthy of consideration.

we are financially profitable, we are one of the affluent successful
countries and a world centre of finance, but we are small.

Post by Mike.. . . .
The Tory party is
there to disenpower ordinary people to the advantage of capitalists.

You got it.

Post by Mike.. . . .
Simple as that. They get away with it by getting people to turn their
fear and hate on immigrants, foreigners and other even poorer groups
like benefits claimants.

A long-recognised tactic indeed. However, I don't find that hatred of
immigrants is in any way limited to right-wing people.

My expereince is that it is, the west country may be different, if you
changed it to "labour voters", I might agree more. In general I find
all the -isms and phobias much more prevelant in the right and its the
right that resists reforms & improvements in those areas.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-05 11:40:45 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

We *alone* will never be a force to be reckoned with again, I don't
think its about empire, its about profitability.

Precisely. If we can't be financially profitable as a nation we won't be
worthy of consideration.

we are financially profitable, we are one of the affluent successful
countries and a world centre of finance, but we are small.

But we (or a certain sector incl r.wing govt driven by that sector - is
that recursive?? ) - want to be more financially profitable as "we" get the
profit. I don't think small is a factor unless aggressors are going to be
attacking in numbers of personnel and that's not modern warfare. Of course,
having larger numbers does have an effect on the consequence of in-coming
by numbers of individuals. It would just take more to reach influencial
numbers in a large native population than in a small.

Post by Mike.. . . .
The Tory party is
there to disenpower ordinary people to the advantage of capitalists.

You got it.

Post by Mike.. . . .
Simple as that. They get away with it by getting people to turn their
fear and hate on immigrants, foreigners and other even poorer groups
like benefits claimants.

A long-recognised tactic indeed. However, I don't find that hatred of
immigrants is in any way limited to right-wing people.

My expereince is that it is, the west country may be different,

Maybe S. Wales and, probably, similar industrial (historically) areas. My
family and hence early learning comes from coal industry miners' and union
society.

Post by Mike.. . . .
if you
changed it to "labour voters",

Yep. Although it isn't automatic. Depends whether the imigrants concerned
show a willingness to integrate. Italians ran Icecream Parlours (called
brachi-shops - sp?) very happily in the mining towns in S.Wales and were
generally liked and accepted.

Post by Mike.. . . .
I might agree more. In general I find
all the -isms and phobias much more prevelant in the right and its the
right that resists reforms & improvements in those areas.

Must admit I hadn't noticed.

Cheers
jane

Have we run out of "politics-tolerance" yet? I think I'll shut up.
J

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-05 14:58:57 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
. I don't think small is a factor unless aggressors are going to be
attacking in numbers of personnel and that's not modern warfare.

modern warfare is often about high tech resources, the US being big,
has lots more than us. China ditto. Size does matter. But I realize it
doesn't fit with leaving EU :-)

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-05 16:12:37 UTC

and another thing.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
attacking in numbers of personnel and that's not modern warfare.

actually, if you look at recent conflicts, boots on the ground are
pretty significant. There hasn't been a lot of using our nuclear subs
to neutralize enemies. Air power is very significant of course in
being able to "win" or claim to win with less men on the ground and
fewer casualties (forgetting the local civilians who are only
"collateral damage"). But look how badly Iraq turned out by using
"shock and awe" instead of "blood and guts" infantry (infantry can
leave the valuable infrastructure intact at the small price of a few
body bags who were proud to take the kings shilling rather than work
on the "dust" or similar).

Ophelia - I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here. I respect the
troops but often not those who simultaneously politically command them
"forward" while reversing funding.

--
Mike... . . . .

allegoricus

2014-01-05 17:09:12 UTC

On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 16:12:37 +0000, Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
and another thing.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
attacking in numbers of personnel and that's not modern warfare.

actually, if you look at recent conflicts, boots on the ground are
pretty significant.

There's simply no substitute for boots on the ground, which was
demonstrated when NATO tried to subdue Milosovic by airstrikes alone.

--
Peter

Jane Gillett

2014-01-07 09:36:23 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
and another thing.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
attacking in numbers of personnel and that's not modern warfare.

OK. Now.
1. You may be right about being small in the modern world.
As a rich successful country (if ever) we would be a useful prize
for an interested organisation and much easier to get possession of than if we
had the EU snapping around us. OK. I'll concede that. Of course, if we are
useful to US.... we are perhaps a similar size to Israel but don't have the
same sort of power within the US... Maybe we should do a deal with
Eire.
2. Yes, Iraq has turned out badly - don't know whether that was because of
type of warfare; so has Libya and Syria's not doing too well ATM. I
suggest that it may take a dictator like Sadam Hussein or Gadalfi who are
willing to suppress ruthlessly to get their own way to keep combatting
factions from internal warfare and leaving the door open for someone like
AQ and between ourselves and US we have removed
both whether deliberately (I believe but denied officially) or incidentally.
Now
with AQ looking actively for conquests and supporting factions which agree
with them we've played into their hands. Syria? The dictator is still
fighting but not with the overall control a strong dictator needs so you can
see the result - with AQ again actively taking advantage.

I really will shut up now! Honest!

Jane

Post by Mike.. . . .
Ophelia - I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here. I respect the
troops but often not those who simultaneously politically command them
"forward" while reversing funding.

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-08 09:45:02 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
OK. Now.
1. You may be right about being small in the modern world.
As a rich successful country (if ever)

we most certainly were, with a huge empire, from Nelson to WW2

Post by Jane Gillett
we would be a useful prize
for an interested organisation and much easier to get possession of than if we
had the EU snapping around us. OK. I'll concede that. Of course, if we are
useful to US.... we are perhaps a similar size to Israel but don't have the
same sort of power within the US... Maybe we should do a deal with
Eire.

Both Eire and Israel have clout or affection in the US, witness the
jumbo loads of plastic paddies arriving at Shannon with the trickle of
Brits and the flow of cash to NORAID until the US learned the hard way
that terrorism isn't romantic after all (11/9).

Turning Jewish might be uncomfortable for some of our members.

As Brits we of course could use the mythical "special relationship" to
influence the US into becoming civilised with proper gun laws,
abolition of capital punishment, universal health care.....
maybe even show them how to make decent cars and drive on the correct
side of the road?

Post by Jane Gillett
2. Yes, Iraq has turned out badly - don't know whether that was because of
type of warfare;

shock and awe with no plan for what came after. Add to that it was the
wrong enemy. Blair was a fool on that one, following clueless Bush
blindly, reassured by their shared myth.

Post by Jane Gillett
so has Libya and Syria's not doing too well ATM.

I don't recall invading them?

Post by Jane Gillett
I suggest that it may take a dictator like Sadam Hussein or Gadalfi who are
willing to suppress ruthlessly to get their own way to keep combatting
factions from internal warfare and leaving the door open for someone like
AQ and between ourselves and US we have removed
both whether deliberately (I believe but denied officially) or incidentally.

Gadaffi was personally and unsuccessfully bombed by USAF, killing a
son, Hussein ditto, killing a waiter. These were either war crimes or
terrorism. Nobody says so.

Post by Jane Gillett
Now
with AQ looking actively for conquests and supporting factions which agree
with them we've played into their hands.

Religion in the hands of a few clever people with an uneducated
population to be deceived, a dangerous thing.

Post by Jane Gillett
Syria? The dictator is still
fighting but not with the overall control a strong dictator needs so you can
see the result - with AQ again actively taking advantage.
I really will shut up now! Honest!

there's not much else going on nowadays, so don't! (and recently we
have finally found some things to argue about)

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-08 10:02:44 UTC

and another thing.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
maybe even show them how to make decent cars and drive on the correct
side of the road?

meant to add latest anti EU myth in the Torygraph, need to reduce
speed limit to 60 to meet EU clean air requirements. SWMBO checked and
theres no such thing, also funny that in the very article it quotes
that "other EU countries have higher speed limits".

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-09 15:30:06 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

<snip>

Post by Jane Gillett
I really will shut up now! Honest!

there's not much else going on nowadays, so don't! (and recently we
have finally found some things to argue about)

Are you discounting Janet?
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Ophelia

2014-01-08 11:09:01 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Ophelia - I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here. I respect the
troops but often not those who simultaneously politically command them
"forward" while reversing funding.

I agree! And it is getting worse.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-08 12:04:25 UTC

Following a post by Ophelia

Post by Ophelia

Post by Mike.. . . .
Ophelia - I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here. I respect the
troops but often not those who simultaneously politically command them
"forward" while reversing funding.

I agree! And it is getting worse.

and there are too many ex squaddies living rough and probably drink
addicted

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-09 15:35:04 UTC

Post by Ophelia

Post by Mike.. . . .
Ophelia - I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here. I respect the
troops but often not those who simultaneously politically command them
"forward" while reversing funding.

I agree! And it is getting worse.

Yes. And from what govt says the trend is not going to be reversed. Troups
are the country's responsibility and should be cared for. Particularly when
those taking the decisions - financial and tactical - are doing so from
postions where they are immune themselves.
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Janet

2014-01-08 17:33:51 UTC

Post by Jane Gillett
Of course, if we are
useful to US.... we are perhaps a similar size to Israel but don't have the
same sort of power within the US...

We are nothing like a similar size to Israel.

The UK landmass is 12 times larger than Israel;
The UK population is 8 times the population of Israel.

The one thing Israel and UK do have in common is that both are
nuclear-armed military outposts of the USA.

Janet.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-08 17:50:35 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Janet
The one thing Israel and UK do have in common is that both are
nuclear-armed military outposts of the USA.

As part of NATO and of course our nuclear weapons are independently
held. Its not a given that every PM will do a Blair.

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-08 18:33:44 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

Post by Janet
The one thing Israel and UK do have in common is that both are
nuclear-armed military outposts of the USA.

As part of NATO and of course our nuclear weapons are independently
held.

If you believe the latter, read the Parliamentary Select Committee on
Defence Report "The independence of the UK's Strategic Nuclear
Deterrent" 2006

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmdfence/986/
98607.htm

in particular, paras 75, 83 and 84.

Janet

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-08 18:45:16 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Janet
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmdfence/986/
98607.htm
in particular, paras 75, 83 and 84.

we buy military stuff in, like many countries. That may well not be a
good thing for some future time but it has nothing to do with
"independence" in this context which is about who decides to use it or
not. Argentina controlled the Exocet missiles it used, not France.

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-06 10:07:04 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
In general I find
all the -isms and phobias much more prevelant in the right and its the
right that resists reforms & improvements in those areas.

Must admit I hadn't noticed.

I'm *very* surprised. Its always the left that promotes equality while
the right wants to stick to the status quo and drags its feet over
change. When the change is well established the right will eventually
grudgingly accept it. Did you see Farage got rather caught out by a
journalist who asked him if he agreed with a quote (which he did)
which came from the famous "rivers of blood" speech by Enoch Powell.

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-07 09:43:49 UTC

and another thing.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
Why does anybody think, as he does,
there is a human right to a weekly landfill collection, what is his
point?

I did a bit of digging and what he actually objects to is splitting
recyclables into separate bins. He claims 95% of people agree with him
but council surveys say otherwise. I suppose things like the overall
objective of cutting landfill mean nothing to him.

--
Mike... . . . .
on the death of Harry Secombe
"I won't have to have him singing at my funeral now" S. Milligan

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-07 12:29:36 UTC

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
I did a bit of digging and what he actually objects to is splitting
recyclables into separate bins. He claims 95% of people agree with him
but council surveys say otherwise. I suppose things like the overall
objective of cutting landfill mean nothing to him.

correction: apparently he believes in recycling but thinks the council
should do the sorting after we throw it away. Sounds expensive
compared with just putting it in separate bins although it would be
good where householder sorting is impractical (flats).

I hear that in Germany you can take all your food wrappings back to
the supermarket for them to dispose of, good incentive to not over
wrap.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-08 08:43:30 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Went to a talk by a commercial recycler a few years ago. He deals with the
business market because private was done by local authority who has a deal
with another commercial recycler..
They (business recycler) collect all business rubbish together in a single
container and sort it with a combinationation of machine and human sorting.
He said that we had to sort privately because our local authority had
signed a 14 year contract with a processor whose technology needed prior
selection a few years ago so it wouldn't be possible for several years.

CAn't remember any discussion of expense.

Post by Mike.. . . .
I hear that in Germany you can take all your food wrappings back to
the supermarket for them to dispose of, good incentive to not over
wrap.

Good idea. But not as good as initially appears IMO. Would probably be
simply a skip in the car park with minimum of inconvenience (hence min
expense & no incentive to stop XS packaging) to smkt and still the same
problem of plastics entering the natural world.
Now if smkts charged suppliers for XS packaging as they do for shelf
placement that may amke a difference.

Cheers
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-09 07:13:29 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
He said that we had to sort privately because our local authority had
signed a 14 year contract with a processor whose technology needed prior
selection a few years ago so it wouldn't be possible for several years.

by coincidence expert on radio, he said pre sorting gets better
result, cheaper.

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-09 12:06:41 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

by coincidence expert on radio, he said pre sorting gets better
result, cheaper.

Here all non-food recycle goes into one domestic collection bin and
is taken for handsorting. Our local council has one of the highest
recycling levels in the country and is a finalist in the UK Local
Authority Waste Hierarchy Award section at the Chartered Institution of
Waste Management awards. Nyah nyah :-)

Janet.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-09 12:46:04 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
by coincidence expert on radio, he said pre sorting gets better
result, cheaper.

Here all non-food recycle goes into one domestic collection bin and
is taken for handsorting.

I wondered about that, how could you recover plastic, tins etc if
mixed with food, without losing at least the food waste? Which is what
the curry eating leviathan wants (I see he was celebrity guest at a
local curry house opening recently).

Post by Janet
Our local council has one of the highest
recycling levels in the country and is a finalist in the UK Local
Authority Waste Hierarchy Award section at the Chartered Institution of
Waste Management awards

IIRC ours in best in London, but its a little meaningless as places
with lots of flats in inner London are at a disadvantage.

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-09 14:23:24 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
by coincidence expert on radio, he said pre sorting gets better
result, cheaper.

Here all non-food recycle goes into one domestic collection bin and
is taken for handsorting.

I wondered about that, how could you recover plastic, tins etc if
mixed with food, without losing at least the food waste?

Food waste isn't allowed in the recycle bin and we're asked to rinse
out any food containers. If the binmen spot banned items in the recycle
bin they won't empty it.

Janet.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-09 15:00:33 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Janet
Food waste isn't allowed in the recycle bin and we're asked to rinse
out any food containers.

I think that's what Pickles thinks he has a human right not to do.

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-03 15:38:47 UTC

Post by Jane Gillett
In this case it would be good to do both ie feed the poor AND
create employment

Food banks are VERY new here. Instead of handing out food it would make
far more sense to rethink *what changed* that caused people who last
year could afford food, unable to buy it this year.

Which, by and large, is the effect of govt economic policy on wages,
benefits and living costs.

Oxfam have demanded a public enquiry
Trussel is the UK's largest foodbank provider.

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/scotland/blog/2013/10/oxfam-backs-call-for-
public-inquiry-into-food-banks

"Chris Mould, Executive Chairman of The Trussell Trust said: 'We said
in April that the increasing numbers of people turning to foodbanks
should be a wake-up call to the nation, but there has been no policy
response and the situation is getting worse. The level of food poverty
in the UK is not acceptable. It's scandalous and it is causing deep
distress to thousands of people.

"The time has come for an official and in depth inquiry into the causes
of food poverty and the consequent rise in the usage of foodbanks. As a
nation we need to accept that something is wrong and that we need to act
now to stop UK hunger getting worse.'

The Trussell Trust is writing to David Cameron asking him to look into
the questions on food poverty recently raised by the Government's
poverty tsar Frank Field MP.

Judith Robertson, Head of Oxfam Scotland, said: "These figures lay bare
the shocking scale of destitution, hardship and hunger in Scotland and
across the UK. It is completely unacceptable that in the seventh
wealthiest nation on the planet, the number of people turning to food
banks has trebled.

"Cuts to our social safety-nets have gone too far, especially the
widespread use of sanctions by the DWP. It is leading to destitution,
hardship and hunger on a large scale.

"And this isn't just affecting people who are on benefits. Rising food
costs and falling wage levels are leaving thousands of working families
unable to feed themselves properly.

Food prices have risen by 12.6% above inflation over the past six years
and rising energy prices this winter are likely to see more people
forced to choose between eating and heating. People at food banks have
started giving back food items that need cooking because they can't
afford to turn on the electricity.

Many people on low-incomes are also being affected by the implementation
of April's welfare reforms. Trussell Trust foodbanks are reporting
increased referrals as a result of housing benefit cuts, and benefits
sanctions."

Janet.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 15:46:57 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Jane Gillett
In this case it would be good to do both ie feed the poor AND
create employment

Food banks are VERY new here. Instead of handing out food it would make
far more sense to rethink *what changed* that caused people who last
year could afford food, unable to buy it this year.

Its no use to somebody short of food for people to work out that the
govts policies are causing the problem, you need to fix it short term.

Post by Janet
Which, by and large, is the effect of govt economic policy on wages,
benefits and living costs.

which will not change anytime soon

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-03 19:11:31 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

Post by Jane Gillett
In this case it would be good to do both ie feed the poor AND
create employment

Food banks are VERY new here. Instead of handing out food it would make
far more sense to rethink *what changed* that caused people who last
year could afford food, unable to buy it this year.

Its no use to somebody short of food for people to work out that the
govts policies are causing the problem, you need to fix it short term.

Which is often something as simple as, paying their state benefits
on time so they can go and buy food.

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/uk-poverty-blog/blog/2013/07/foodbank-
referrals-from-the-dwp

"It would be foolish to not look into why this is happening, so
shouldn't the DWP monitor, record and investigate why it is that so many
people are presenting in crisis, unable to feed their families?

As Jack, a mum and blogger who once relied on foodbanks, told parliament
last month, "There comes a point where you need to not just pull people
out of the river; you need to go upstream and find out who is pushing
them in."

Many of the Peers present in this House of Lords debate had visited food
banks themselves, and raised similar concerns. For them, just like for
us, it was clear that nobody really wants to use food banks, but do so
simply as they have no other choice. Peers also questioned the support
offered by crisis loans and the frequent delays in benefit payments.
Delays like these can mean people are left with no money at all, so no
wonder they have to turn to foodbanks."

Janet

Janet.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-04 09:52:25 UTC

Following a post by Janet

Post by Mike.. . . .
Its no use to somebody short of food for people to work out that the
govts policies are causing the problem, you need to fix it short term.

Which is often something as simple as, paying their state benefits
on time so they can go and buy food.

nobody is saying otherwise, when the tories give a shit we wont need
foodbanks, till then.....

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-04 09:16:13 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Janet

Post by Jane Gillett
In this case it would be good to do both ie feed the poor AND
create employment

Food banks are VERY new here. Instead of handing out food it would make
far more sense to rethink *what changed* that caused people who last
year could afford food, unable to buy it this year.

Its no use to somebody short of food for people to work out that the
govts policies are causing the problem, you need to fix it short term.

Post by Janet
Which, by and large, is the effect of govt economic policy on wages,
benefits and living costs.

which will not change anytime soon

Not without a change of government policy which I fear will require a
change of government.

Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-04 10:56:36 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
Its no use to somebody short of food for people to work out that the
govts policies are causing the problem, you need to fix it short term.

Post by Janet
Which, by and large, is the effect of govt economic policy on wages,
benefits and living costs.

which will not change anytime soon

Not without a change of government policy which I fear will require a
change of government.

to go back to Janet's quote about "give a man a fish" etc I think we
need to do both, fish in the short term, in the medium term, decent
honourable politicians who do not bash the poor and at minimum make
sure any benefits are paid on time, outlaw dodgy employment practices,
loan sharks lik wonga & make sure minimum wage is livable. In the
longer term education has a role in making sure people know how to
cook efficiently.(I reject the argument that you can educate away the
poor, as I think the only way to not have poverty is to not have very
low paid jobs or under/unemployment, *whatever* the skills of the
population - anybody who has been to Cuba will have seen doctors of
this and that serving drinks, as no doubt applies to many of the poles
in London. How you achieve that I'm not sure, it seems to be going the
opposite way with pressure from Chinese pay rates & undermining of
trades unions).

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-05 11:55:09 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
Its no use to somebody short of food for people to work out that the
govts policies are causing the problem, you need to fix it short term.

Post by Janet
Which, by and large, is the effect of govt economic policy on wages,
benefits and living costs.

which will not change anytime soon

Not without a change of government policy which I fear will require a
change of government.

Yes. Yes. And also the education should contain ability to question what
the media is putting forward, including how to translate adverts:-
"Up to" and "could" get/lose/whatever. Advertising is a powerful skill and
the advertisers are good at it - good at promoting what they want to say,
NOT at telling the truth. Children need to be taught the tricks/techniques;
analysis of current media statements could be useful training.

Trouble is, (back to cooking) the parents of today's children probably
didn't get much cooking education; their parents probably didn't cook
because they didn't have time from having to have two paypackets to support
one family home and school "cooking" (sorry - "home economics") lessons
were on progressive things like how to design a can label. Neither parents
nor children received any useful knowledge, in many cases, of which bits of
food you use, which bits you don't and how to cook the bits you wanted so
it's not surprising and you cannot blame them when they can't cook.

Post by Mike.. . . .
(I reject the argument that you can educate away the
poor, as I think the only way to not have poverty is to not have very
low paid jobs or under/unemployment, *whatever* the skills of the
population - anybody who has been to Cuba will have seen doctors of
this and that serving drinks, as no doubt applies to many of the poles
in London. How you achieve that I'm not sure, it seems to be going the
opposite way with pressure from Chinese pay rates & undermining of
trades unions).

IAGTU that CHina is having problems in that their workers are starting to
demand wage levels to support western style standard of living which should
help "us"; whether us (all) or us (top sectors) is another matter.

Cheers
jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-05 15:05:10 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Trouble is, (back to cooking) the parents of today's children probably
didn't get much cooking education; their parents probably didn't cook
because they didn't have time from having to have two paypackets to support
one family home and school "cooking" (sorry - "home economics") lessons
were on progressive things like how to design a can label. Neither parents
nor children received any useful knowledge, in many cases, of which bits of
food you use, which bits you don't and how to cook the bits you wanted so
it's not surprising and you cannot blame them when they can't cook.

Yes, that period of food technology was ridiculous. However, I don't
regard formal education as the totality of learning. I had no
schooling in cooking and learnt nothing from parents. I can more or
less cook. The resources are out there. All you need is a TV, a
computer or a library and the will.

China wages are rising, but its hard to "demand" in a place where they
reply with tanks

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-07 09:20:35 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Also appropriate peer pressure - or lack of p. disincentive.
Also supplies to practice on.

China wages are rising, but its hard to "demand" in a place where they
reply with tanks

Well, yes, but if job supply is adequate they might have to offer enough to
get staff.

Are you saying China is operating on the "low-paid-class" principle?

Cheers
jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-08 09:49:44 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Also appropriate peer pressure - or lack of p. disincentive.
Also supplies to practice on.

There may well be some who cannot afford a bag of beans, but I see
plenty of chavs with trolley loads of expensive ready meals. And most
can get to a Tesco, which stocks all the ingedients you could need. I
think people just find it easier and we never had a strong cooking
tradition or interest like somewhere like Italy.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-09 15:37:01 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Also appropriate peer pressure - or lack of p. disincentive.
Also supplies to practice on.

Not sure it's money. If parent doesn't have it in the home then junior
can't use it.

Also child's peer pressure may well favour ready meals.

Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-10 08:18:57 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
There may well be some who cannot afford a bag of beans, but I see
plenty of chavs with trolley loads of expensive ready meals. And most
can get to a Tesco, which stocks all the ingedients you could need. I
think people just find it easier and we never had a strong cooking
tradition or interest like somewhere like Italy.

Not sure it's money. If parent doesn't have it in the home then junior
can't use it.
Also child's peer pressure may well favour ready meals.

didn't realise we were talking of children.

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-10 11:35:45 UTC

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
Also child's peer pressure may well favour ready meals.

didn't realise we were talking of children.

plus advertising pressure

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-10 12:08:04 UTC

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
Not sure it's money. If parent doesn't have it in the home then junior
can't use it.
Also child's peer pressure may well favour ready meals.

didn't realise we were talking of children.

to the group in general, what ages did you all learn to cook? What
ages do you see offspring etc learning?

--
Mike... . . . .

Ophelia

2014-01-10 14:38:36 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
Not sure it's money. If parent doesn't have it in the home then junior
can't use it.
Also child's peer pressure may well favour ready meals.

didn't realise we were talking of children.

to the group in general, what ages did you all learn to cook? What
ages do you see offspring etc learning?

I can't say I cooked at that age, but when I was about 3 I used to kneel up
at the table to help my Grandmother baked etc

My offspring had their own jobs to do in the house, no matter how small a
job. They used to be so proud. Not so much when they got older <g>

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

Janet

2014-01-10 15:33:26 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
to the group in general, what ages did you all learn to cook?

11. Cookery classes were part of the state secondary school
curriculum.

What

Post by Mike.. . . .
ages do you see offspring etc learning?

My children started in nursery school (age 3).. the tots were taken to
shop for food, then cooked it, then served it and ate it.. stuff like
soups (fish, vegetable, chicken) pizza, biscuits and fruitloaf. One of
them still makes the excellent fruit loaf recipe he learnt there age 3.

No cooking classes in their primary schools but they all joined cubs,
where they had more cooking lessons leading to cooking badges, followed
by a very oldfashioned scout troop where they camped often and cooked
all their own (real) food over woodfires. They all had cookery classes
in High school and brought the results home for the family to eat; and
cooked with both of us at home from the age they were old enough to
roll pastry (about 2). By early teens they fished, cleaned and cooked
the catch on a fire, used recipe books, and (in the kitchen)could cook a
really good three course family meal from scratch with no adult help.
When they left home, travelled, flatshared with other cooking friends
etc they acquired much wider cooking repertoires.One of the joys now, is
that the roles are reversed and they delight in making us wonderful
meals and teaching us how to make other foods.

Janet

Jane Gillett

2014-01-11 17:28:22 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
Not sure it's money. If parent doesn't have it in the home then junior
can't use it.
Also child's peer pressure may well favour ready meals.

didn't realise we were talking of children.

to the group in general, what ages did you all learn to cook? What
ages do you see offspring etc learning?

Depends. My mother didn't like cooking and having a child around prolonged
the agony; her sister generally cooked for the family and I learned some.
School was a dead loss; got told off for trying to use a gas regulo without
the gas supply full on (home stove didn't have a regulo and teacher hadn't
envisaged <that> possibility), boiled egg for salad was still v. runny,
tkat's about all I remember - oh, think crumble worked ok - learned to dry
teatowels by holding them in direct contact with hotplates on the range but
we taught ouselves that. No useful stuff (apart from the towels); learned
all that afterwards - evening classes/friends/MIL/life.
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Jane Gillett

2014-01-11 17:18:31 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Not sure it's money. If parent doesn't have it in the home then junior
can't use it.
Also child's peer pressure may well favour ready meals.

didn't realise we were talking of children.

Thought we were talking of school educ among other things.
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

allegoricus

2014-01-05 17:06:11 UTC

Post by Janet
Food banks are VERY new here. Instead of handing out food it would make
far more sense to rethink *what changed* that caused people who last
year could afford food, unable to buy it this year.

No re-think needed to see what's happened. If a family was only just
able to live within their income last year, they'll be screwed if
housing benefit drops, any family member normally working becomes
unemployed and, even worse, gets sanctioned by the Jobcentre for
being, as Jimmy Dawkins related, unable to be in two places at once.
Increases in food prices are the least part of it.
It's hardly as if benefits in this country were adequate before all
this, and don't let''s forget that it's supposed to be an insurance
scheme.

--
Peter

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-05 17:22:51 UTC

Following a post by allegoricus

Post by allegoricus
only just
able to live within their income last year,

and IIRC average incomes are down over £1000, train fares up more than
inflation, tuition fees huge jump and so on and so on. Not too much
left for food.

--
Mike... . . . .

allegoricus

2014-01-05 16:59:36 UTC

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 10:52:03 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett
<***@higherstert.co.uk> wrote:

----------------8><

It was Milton Friedman (one of the Blessed Margaret's gurus) who
suggested that you need poor people in order to be able to define the
rich.

--
Peter

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-03 11:59:24 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Has the fund got a Food Aid tag on it? (Chris Mould, Trussell Trust ).
If it has then it surely has to be spent on food aid regardless of who is
taking decisions on the administration.

but where?

Post by Jane Gillett
It is not clear to me whether the money in question has been designated for
food or not.

They say they want to fund food banks, don't understand the problem?

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-04 22:06:36 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

but where?

"What" is done is more important than who does it. I'm not confident that
UK govt has shown itself capable of effectively designing and providing the
support needed. In that situation I have more confidence in those who have
a sort of backing from the main support agencies and the EU seems to have
more of their confidence.

Post by Jane Gillett
It is not clear to me whether the money in question has been designated for
food or not.

They say they want to fund food banks, don't understand the problem?

I think it likely that they tend to lack the experience which they'd need
to design an effective system of support.

Short-term systems they can probably manage with their familiarity with the
workings and personnel of the big financial systems - things like immediate
local reception systems for the asian people kicked out of Uganda by Amin
which I gather worked well but were obviously a short-term issue.

However, I don't think they will generally have enough experience and
sympathy with the longterm poor to set up and run a feeding-support system
to operate for the length of time it will take for the employment system to
get back to health - if it ever does - <IF> to compete and
survive in the modern world we have to keep a lowpaid class, then that
factor will figure strongly in a Tory govt's way of operating.

Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-08 09:52:22 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
They say they want to fund food banks, don't understand the problem?

I think it likely that they tend to lack the experience which they'd need
to design an effective system of support.

they don't need to design anything, its just funding for food banks
for as long as UK is run by heartless bastards.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-09 15:23:47 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
They say they want to fund food banks, don't understand the problem?

I think it likely that they tend to lack the experience which they'd need
to design an effective system of support.

they don't need to design anything, its just funding for food banks
for as long as UK is run by heartless bastards.

They need to recognise that funding is still important when they try to end
it.
They need to recognise who should verify who is eligible for help when they
try to rule out categories of "needy".

Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-10 08:19:56 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
They need to recognise who should verify who is eligible for help when they
try to rule out categories of "needy".

that's done by referring organisations

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-11 17:29:47 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
They need to recognise who should verify who is eligible for help when they
try to rule out categories of "needy".

that's done by referring organisations

Only AFA govt permits them.
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-11 17:57:48 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
that's done by referring organisations

Only AFA govt permits them.

exactly, govt is blocking it. Stop that and theres no problems to sort
out.

--
Mike... . . . .
'The world has enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed.'
Mahatma Gandhi

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-20 10:45:59 UTC

Edwina Curry just said on radio food bank use is high because people
can't cook and don't save. Obviously this change in behaviour has
suddenly happened since benefits cuts and zero hours contracts.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-21 08:48:45 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Edwina Curry just said on radio food bank use is high because people
can't cook and don't save. Obviously this change in behaviour has
suddenly happened since benefits cuts and zero hours contracts.

Well, lots of people can't cook because they weren't taught and they don't
save because either they haven't got enough money to have anything left
over to save after living costs or there's no interest earned.
Alternatively some people may be "investing" in longer term goods rather
than saving money; I spent money on ensuring that we had an adequate supply
of household linen so that if you put your foot through a sheet you did
have another available; after all, a pound tomorrow buys less than a pound
today but a sheet's a sheet.

And this has been going on longer than benefit cuts; no idea about zero
hours contracts.

I still see the current "rebuilding the economy" as simply a re-creation of
a system of cheap labour to enable UK to compete with the nations where
labour is still on a low paid basis.

Cheers
Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Janet

2014-01-21 12:54:18 UTC

The rise of and necessity for food banks in the UK is very recent
indeed, matching recent changes in benefits, wages and cost of living.

The figures were shown on the web reports of the largest UK foodbank
organisation, in a link that's already been posted.

Janet

Jane Gillett

2014-01-22 09:16:28 UTC

The rise of and necessity for food banks in the UK is very recent
indeed, matching recent changes in benefits, wages and cost of living.

I'm sure the "rise"* can be correlated with benefit cuts and issues related
above** - no doubt at all that there are figures to support that. The "need" is
another matter and cannot be quantified so easily and there are reported
instances, at least anecdotal or press related, that show that hunger is
not merely a recent thing.
And splitting need from necessity - again the "need" is people who are hungry
through circumstances beyond their control; the "necessity", eg the provision
of food banks, OTOH, depends
on whether those who could feed them feel that there is any reason why they
should do so.

Jane

*of food banks

**Simple correlation has its dangers eg I'm sure you could find figures to
show that the majority of men killed in road accidents in UK were wearing
trousers at the time.

Post by Janet
The figures were shown on the web reports of the largest UK foodbank
organisation, in a link that's already been posted.
Janet

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-22 14:03:15 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
I'm sure the "rise"* can be correlated with benefit cuts and issues related
above** - no doubt at all that there are figures to support that.

Yes

Post by Jane Gillett
The "need" is another matter and cannot be quantified so easily and there are reported
instances, at least anecdotal or press related, that show that hunger is
not merely a recent thing.

Hunger has been around before, yes, but the "need" for food banks has
gone up because of the cuts etc above. Don't see how "need" and "rise"
are different things in context?

Post by Jane Gillett
And splitting need from necessity - again the "need" is people who are hungry
through circumstances beyond their control;

these needs for food *are* necessities

Post by Jane Gillett
the "necessity", eg the provision
of food banks, OTOH, depends
on whether those who could feed them feel that there is any reason why they
should do so.

sorry, don't follow you?

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-23 08:56:01 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
I'm sure the "rise"* can be correlated with benefit cuts and issues related
above** - no doubt at all that there are figures to support that.

Yes

Hunger has been around before, yes, but the "need" for food banks has
gone up because of the cuts etc above. Don't see how "need" and "rise"
are different things in context?

Both rise and benefit cuts can be expressed precisely in numerical terms
and so are simple to compare. Need is much more complex as it depends on
several issues, not all easily expressed as figures so correlation is more
difficult.

Post by Jane Gillett
And splitting need from necessity - again the "need" is people who are hungry
through circumstances beyond their control;

these needs for food *are* necessities

They are necessities but not "necessities" IOW not the "necessities" which
the govt feels <it> has to meet.
Govt "necessities", things the govt feels obliged to do, depend to some
extent on what will or will not colour its reputation and/or fulfill its
image of future. Yes, if people have a need of food they'll begin to starve
if they don't get it but "In the Big Society" the present govt seem to
suggest that this is the responsibility of "Society (Big)" rather than the
govt per se.

Post by Jane Gillett
the "necessity", eg the provision
of food banks, OTOH, depends
on whether those who could feed them feel that there is any reason why they
should do so.

sorry, don't follow you?

Above?

Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-23 18:50:31 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Both rise and benefit cuts can be expressed precisely in numerical terms
and so are simple to compare. Need is much more complex as it depends on
several issues, not all easily expressed as figures so correlation is more
difficult.

the need to eat isn't complex and can be expressed as a number - the
cost of basic foodstuffs or what's wrong with the number of people
needing foodbanks?

Post by Jane Gillett
And splitting need from necessity - again the "need" is people who are hungry
through circumstances beyond their control;

these needs for food *are* necessities

They are necessities but not "necessities" IOW not the "necessities" which
the govt feels <it> has to meet.

the govt couldn't give a ****. Its not a matter of what the govt
thinks, all they care about is cutting benefits and letting charities
fill the gap, its cheaper. The only thing you need evaluate is the
number of people referred to foodbanks.

Post by Jane Gillett
Govt "necessities", things the govt feels obliged to do, depend to some
extent on what will or will not colour its reputation and/or fulfill its
image of future. Yes, if people have a need of food they'll begin to starve
if they don't get it but "In the Big Society" the present govt seem to
suggest that this is the responsibility of "Society (Big)" rather than the
govt per se.

indeed. Selfish bastards get lower tax and shift the responsibility to
nice people who care.

--
Mike... . . . .

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-24 11:46:41 UTC

Another thing.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
They are necessities but not "necessities" IOW not the "necessities" which
the govt feels <it> has to meet.

It struck me overnight that if you want to put a number on the govts
feeling for what it has to do, its poll ratings.
They cut benefits, choose not to control loan sharks, allow zero hours
contracts, the Wail vilifies any examples of the "undeserving poor" it
can find and then they look at the polls.
If they are holding up OK no worries, if not you might see Cameron
backing off or you just get Eggwina reinforcing the message that its
the poors own fault. Is that where we are right now?

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-25 08:35:26 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Another thing.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
They are necessities but not "necessities" IOW not the "necessities" which
the govt feels <it> has to meet.

Seems a likely check but I reckon they will have made predictions
beforehand.

Post by Mike.. . . .
If they are holding up OK no worries, if not you might see Cameron
backing off or you just get Eggwina reinforcing the message that its
the poors own fault. Is that where we are right now?

Seems a possibility.

Cheers
jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-25 16:46:51 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
the Wail vilifies any examples of the "undeserving poor" it

Post by Mike.. . . .
can find and then they look at the polls.

Seems a likely check but I reckon they will have made predictions
beforehand.

focus groups and suchlike do not always predict public reaction.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-26 09:16:10 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
the Wail vilifies any examples of the "undeserving poor" it

Post by Mike.. . . .
can find and then they look at the polls.

Seems a likely check but I reckon they will have made predictions
beforehand.

focus groups and suchlike do not always predict public reaction.

Well, I guess they don't always get it right but to misquote Churchill it
may be a lousy system but the best one we have (the method of prediction
that is).

Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-26 19:25:27 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
the Wail vilifies any examples of the "undeserving poor" it

Post by Mike.. . . .
can find and then they look at the polls.

Seems a likely check but I reckon they will have made predictions
beforehand.

focus groups and suchlike do not always predict public reaction.

Well, I guess they don't always get it right but to misquote Churchill it
may be a lousy system but the best one we have (the method of prediction
that is).

If the tories push the policy or not on the basis of polls surely that
is perfect democracy? Or would be without the right wing press who lie
a lot. (more than the left wing press because the left only has to
tell the weak to vote for a party that supports the weak, the right
wing press needs to sell it to the weak to vote for thier oppressors).

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-24 09:44:17 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

the need to eat isn't complex and can be expressed as a number - the
cost of basic foodstuffs or what's wrong with the number of people
needing foodbanks?

How are you going to define "needing" numerically (you need that for
correlation)? You can record how many "using" foodbanks but can you use
that as the number "needing"?

Post by Jane Gillett
And splitting need from necessity - again the "need" is people who are hungry
through circumstances beyond their control;

these needs for food *are* necessities

They are necessities but not "necessities" IOW not the "necessities" which
the govt feels <it> has to meet.

the govt couldn't give a ****.

Well, only a little one perhaps.

Post by Mike.. . . .
Its not a matter of what the govt
thinks, all they care about is cutting benefits

If the prime concern is to attain a strong economy AND if that economy
benefits from having cheap labour (please see earlier posts), then having
high benefits interferes with the willingness to work for low wages and so
negates the progress towards said strength of economy. So it makes economic
sense to cut benefits.
On that tack, it also makes economic sense to have high unemployment and we
can see steps being taken to achieve that .... unless ... does anybody know
the steps being taken, to support the services personnel who are going to
be made redundant?

So long as they can hold off a French-type revolution it's a good tactic.

Post by Mike.. . . .
and letting charities

(The Big Society)

Post by Mike.. . . .
fill the gap, its cheaper.

Of course.

Post by Mike.. . . .
The only thing you need evaluate is the
number of people referred to foodbanks.

Ah, yes. That's a number. Who does that and what are the criteria used?
What boxes do you tick? Is that the number to be used as as a figure for
"needing"? Do foodbanks supply food to anybody who comes in without
appropriate reference?

indeed. Selfish bastards get lower tax and shift the responsibility to
nice people who care.

Just a comment - largely agree though - not all those who qualify for lower
tax while highly paid fail to care/help.

Cheers
jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-25 09:07:42 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
the need to eat isn't complex and can be expressed as a number - the
cost of basic foodstuffs or what's wrong with the number of people
needing foodbanks?

How are you going to define "needing" numerically (you need that for
correlation)? You can record how many "using" foodbanks but can you use
that as the number "needing"?

yes, its the same, you have to be referred

Tressel:-
"Frontline care professionals identify people in need

Care professionals such as doctors, health visitors, social workers,
CAB and police identify people in crisis and issue them with a
foodbank voucher. Foodbanks partner with a wide range of care
professionals who are best placed to assess need and make sure that it
is genuine."

Post by Jane Gillett
And splitting need from necessity - again the "need" is people who are hungry
through circumstances beyond their control;

these needs for food *are* necessities

They are necessities but not "necessities" IOW not the "necessities" which
the govt feels <it> has to meet.

the govt couldn't give a ****.

Well, only a little one perhaps.

Post by Mike.. . . .
Its not a matter of what the govt
thinks, all they care about is cutting benefits

yes, have to compete with China

Post by Jane Gillett
On that tack, it also makes economic sense to have high unemployment and we
can see steps being taken to achieve that .... unless ... does anybody know
the steps being taken, to support the services personnel who are going to
be made redundant?

nothing I expect, same as everybody else, theres a dissproportianate
number of soldiers living rough

Post by Jane Gillett
So long as they can hold off a French-type revolution it's a good tactic.

or more hopefully, losing the elections again but this time the
LibDems not siding with a party that nobody but the leader agrees
with.

Post by Mike.. . . .
and letting charities

(The Big Society)

Post by Mike.. . . .
fill the gap, its cheaper.

Of course.

Post by Mike.. . . .
The only thing you need evaluate is the
number of people referred to foodbanks.

No, that wouldnt work, would it.

indeed. Selfish bastards get lower tax and shift the responsibility to
nice people who care.

Just a comment - largely agree though - not all those who qualify for lower
tax while highly paid fail to care/help.

Indeed not, some rich people don't even vote tory and are derided as
"champagne socialists" because they dont put *immediate* self interest
first, second and third. I increasingly think that the modern post
Thatcher Tory is characterised as somebody who cant see beyond what
seems obvious.

--
Mike... . . . .

Jane Gillett

2014-01-26 09:14:21 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
the need to eat isn't complex and can be expressed as a number - the
cost of basic foodstuffs or what's wrong with the number of people
needing foodbanks?

How are you going to define "needing" numerically (you need that for
correlation)? You can record how many "using" foodbanks but can you use
that as the number "needing"?

yes, its the same, you have to be referred
Tressel:-
"Frontline care professionals identify people in need
Care professionals such as doctors, health visitors, social workers,
CAB and police identify people in crisis and issue them with a
foodbank voucher. Foodbanks partner with a wide range of care
professionals who are best placed to assess need and make sure that it
is genuine."

OK, so the number needing foodbanks is the number referred.

<snip>

Post by Mike.. . . .
the govt couldn't give a ****.

Well, only a little one perhaps.

Post by Mike.. . . .
Its not a matter of what the govt
thinks, all they care about is cutting benefits

yes, have to compete with China

So what DO you do?
Have a system which supports a reasonable life for all OR cut benefits to
"encourage" people to work for low pay and thus create high financial
profits for the few and an economy which produces goods as cheaply as
countries which make use of low-paid labour?

Communism? Seemed to have problems too - said to be due to human weakness
leading to abuse of the system.

Compromise? But we apparently can't agree where to compromise.

nothing I expect, same as everybody else, theres a dissproportianate
number of soldiers living rough

Post by Jane Gillett
So long as they can hold off a French-type revolution it's a good tactic.

or more hopefully, losing the elections again but this time the
LibDems not siding with a party that nobody but the leader agrees
with.

But whoever's in power, the problem's the same - economy & slave labour.

Jane

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-26 19:22:10 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
yes, have to compete with China

maybe if we hadnt allowed all our capital to be exported to those low
wage countries and sold to each other in Europe instead?

Post by Jane Gillett
Communism? Seemed to have problems too - said to be due to human weakness
leading to abuse of the system.

indeed, didnt work even if not abused

Post by Jane Gillett
Compromise? But we apparently can't agree where to compromise.

nothing I expect, same as everybody else, theres a dissproportianate
number of soldiers living rough

Post by Jane Gillett
So long as they can hold off a French-type revolution it's a good tactic.

or more hopefully, losing the elections again but this time the
LibDems not siding with a party that nobody but the leader agrees
with.

But whoever's in power, the problem's the same - economy & slave labour.

You do not have to redistribute wealth to the rich, only the tories do
that, obscene in my opinion. Obviously pay in the west will be static
till china etcf catch up, you dont have to go out of your way to make
it worse.

--
Mike... . . . .

graham

2014-01-26 20:10:05 UTC

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

the need to eat isn't complex and can be expressed as a number - the
cost of basic foodstuffs or what's wrong with the number of people
needing foodbanks?

How are you going to define "needing" numerically (you need that for
correlation)? You can record how many "using" foodbanks but can you use
that as the number "needing"?

Post by Jane Gillett
And splitting need from necessity - again the "need" is people who are hungry
through circumstances beyond their control;

these needs for food *are* necessities

They are necessities but not "necessities" IOW not the "necessities" which
the govt feels <it> has to meet.

the govt couldn't give a ****.

And not just the govt:
http://digitaljournal.com/article/362499
or
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/11/19/wal-mart-food-drive/
Graham

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-27 09:48:50 UTC

Following a post by graham

Post by graham

Post by Mike.. . . .
the govt couldn't give a ****.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/362499
or
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/11/19/wal-mart-food-drive/

I expect businesses to **** on workers, that's how capitalism works
and why you need government to regulate its excesses, left to itself
capitalism leaves all the money with a very few. Labour Unions can
moderate that but unions are in retreat having been successfully
demonised by the right (partly their own fault here with past
excesses).

We live in a world where 85 *individuals* have more wealth than the
worst off 50% of all people have in *total*. I think its Oxfam who ask
why mentioning this to right wingers brings accusations of "class
warfare".

Its bankers bonus time again and I see there are new rules in US about
how much can be in cash, IIRC its limited to 50% for bonuses in excess
of (wait for it) 5m.
So here in London there will be workers going to food banks while
others take home 2.5m in cash, 2.5m+ in securities + a salary. Some of
them say they "need" such pay for work their regulator said is often
of "no social value" and which brought down the western economies
recently. While those that care for the elderly are on the minimum
wage and many voters think the then prime minister Brown was the cause
of the crash.
Still looking on the bright side, at least the right is being split by
the lunatics of UKIP, but god help us if they get elected.

--
Mike... . . . .

Janet

2014-01-22 17:04:13 UTC

The rise of and necessity for food banks in the UK is very recent
indeed, matching recent changes in benefits, wages and cost of living.

The need, is a matter of simple arithmetic and public record as
incomes fall and living costs rise, inflation pushes more and more
people into the position where their (previously cope-able) income no
longer covers essential expenses.

Janet.

Jane Gillett

2014-01-23 08:46:53 UTC

Post by Janet
The rise of and necessity for food banks in the UK is very recent
indeed, matching recent changes in benefits, wages and cost of living.

Exactly.

Post by Janet
Janet.

--
Jane Gillett : ***@higherstert.co.uk : Totnes, Devon.

Janet

2014-01-23 16:44:08 UTC

Post by Janet
The rise of and necessity for food banks in the UK is very recent
indeed, matching recent changes in benefits, wages and cost of living.

Exactly.

So it's not difficult to quantify changing "need", is it? Public
service payrates, benefit reductions, inflation, rising
food/power/transport costs, are all on the public record.

Janet

Mike.. . . .

2014-01-21 14:46:18 UTC

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Well, lots of people can't cook because they weren't taught and they don't
save because either they haven't got enough money to have anything left
over to save after living costs or there's no interest earned.

certainly, then theres Wonga....

Post by Jane Gillett
Alternatively some people may be "investing" in longer term goods rather
than saving money; I spent money on ensuring that we had an adequate supply
of household linen so that if you put your foot through a sheet you did
have another available; after all, a pound tomorrow buys less than a pound
today but a sheet's a sheet.
And this has been going on longer than benefit cuts;

indeed, the sudden rise in food bank use correlates with benefits cut
etc. not lack of cooking skills. Eggwinas comment is the tory mantra
that poverty is a consequence of fecklessness and theres no need to
feel any guilt for transferring wealth to the already rich.

Post by Jane Gillett
no idea about zero
hours contracts.

these are jobs where you may or may not get any work in a given week,
no work, no pay. But you have a job so no benefits. Immoral and should
be banned along with pay day loan sharks.

--
Mike... . . . .

Kev

2014-01-21 23:08:30 UTC