Really, really a million miles off-topic

[Malcolm Loades]

I'm trying to find out if it's only me!

My bank has sent me a new debit card to replace the one which expires at
the end of this month and this new card can be used contactlessly. I
don't want a contactless card so rang them up asking for what I'd call a
'regular' debit card. No can do! "We don't offer a debit card without
this facility".

It seems that all the major banks are replacing their debit cards with
ones which can be used contactlessly.

Am I alone in not wanting a card which, if I lost it, could buy the
finder a MacDonalds meal, their shopping in Lidl, coffee and eats in
Starbucks, the tube to get home and magazines to read on the way etc
etc. before I realised I'd lost the card and told the bank to block it?
Each purchase would have be less than £20 and after 5 or 6 uses the bank
tell me it would ask for my PIN number. By that time I'd be £100 to
£120 out of pocket.

Malcolm

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Each purchase would have be less than £20 and after 5 or 6 uses the bank
tell me it would ask for my PIN number. By that time I'd be £100 to
£120 out of pocket.

also, what stops somebody with a scanner in their pocket taking money
as you pass? I don't really know how it all works.

[John Silver]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Each purchase would have be less than £20 and after 5 or 6 uses the bank
tell me it would ask for my PIN number. By that time I'd be £100 to
£120 out of pocket.

also, what stops somebody with a scanner in their pocket taking money
as you pass? I don't really know how it all works.

You need a foil lined wallet to prevent it.
John

[Ophelia]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Each purchase would have be less than £20 and after 5 or 6 uses the bank
tell me it would ask for my PIN number. By that time I'd be £100 to
£120 out of pocket.

also, what stops somebody with a scanner in their pocket taking money
as you pass? I don't really know how it all works.

I've heard that if you stand too near the shop scanner and it is in your
pocket, it will register the sale too and the money has been taken.

In that case I would keep it in a case lined with foil. The bank should be
made to cover such losses I think, especially if you have told them you
don't want a contactless card!

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Ophelia

Post by Ophelia
I've heard that if you stand too near the shop scanner and it is in your
pocket, it will register the sale too and the money has been taken.

we all hear a lot of things.

I cannot find the exact distance but its inches not feet "close
proximity".

The thing here is you can react two ways to new technology:-

1) they are not stupid and will have planned for fairly obvious
potential problems

2) its a new fangled idea and I will never trust it and will believe
anything negative anybody says.

This group seems firmly in (2)

Post by Ophelia
In that case I would keep it in a case lined with foil. The bank should be
made to cover such losses I think, especially if you have told them you
don't want a contactless card!

the banks long ago said they stand any losses unless they can prove
the cardholder made the transaction.

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Mike.. . . .
the banks long ago said they stand any losses unless they can prove
the cardholder made the transaction.

If that is true then I'm happy to have a contactless card because they
could never prove I made a transaction which didn't require anything
more than card being waved within 50mm of the reader.

Can you give a reference for your claim " ...... they stand any losses
unless they can prove the cardholder made the transaction"?

When I raised that question with first direct their response was that
their fraud department would investigate and that they 'are very good at
getting money back'. Which is nothing like a promise to refund if they
can't prove it was me.

Malcolm

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Can you give a reference for your claim " ...... they stand any losses
unless they can prove the cardholder made the transaction"?

I saw that several places, wonder where, will look......

This is good page from HSBC:-

re "proximity" look at this:-
<http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/customer-support/card-services/using-your-card/contactless>

Its **2cm** from reader only after a transaction is entered by sales
staff.

"Q. What should I do if my contactless card has been lost or stolen?

A. You should notify us as soon as possible by calling us on 08456 007
010. If anyone has fraudulently used your contactless card to make a
transaction, as long as you have kept your details safe, you will not
be responsible for any losses incurred. "

So same as other cards?


(Barclays had a cock up in the early days where smartphones could read
somebody elses data or something, they were threatened with big
fines).

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
re "proximity" look at this:-
<http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/customer-support/card-services/using-your-card/contactless>

also says

If your card is lost or stolen, you're protected against fraud loss
providing you take the kind of precautions we recommend and let us
know as soon as you realise it's gone.

Q. Could I unknowingly make a purchase as I walk past a reader?

A. No. The retailer must have entered the amount for you to approve
first, and then your card has to be held within a couple of
centimetres of the terminal for longer than half a second.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
re "proximity" look at this:-
<http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/customer-support/card-services/using-your-card/contactless>

also says
If your card is lost or stolen, you're protected against fraud loss
providing you take the kind of precautions we recommend and let us
know as soon as you realise it's gone.
Q. Could I unknowingly make a purchase as I walk past a reader?
A. No. The retailer must have entered the amount for you to approve
first, and then your card has to be held within a couple of
centimetres of the terminal for longer than half a second.

Imagine. You have a card case with several cards in your hand including a
contactless card. You put one card into the card reader. To shield your PIN
from view by bystanders you hold your other hand as recommended by some
sources, still holding the card case, over the reader.

Cheers
jane

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Imagine. You have a card case with several cards in your hand including a
contactless card. You put one card into the card reader. To shield your PIN
from view by bystanders you hold your other hand as recommended by some
sources, still holding the card case, over the reader.

I only looked into this because of this thread, surely the sales
assistant has set up sale for contactless or contact, not both?

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Imagine. You have a card case with several cards in your hand including a
contactless card. You put one card into the card reader. To shield your PIN
from view by bystanders you hold your other hand as recommended by some
sources, still holding the card case, over the reader.

You'd need three hand. Not very practical especially if you're trying to
juggle that with a handbag or similar as well.

Post by Mike.. . . .
I only looked into this because of this thread, surely the sales
assistant has set up sale for contactless or contact, not both?

What happens if you have two or more contactless cards in your pack?
Which one would be debited? Do you get a choice on the Checkout display?

If I have to take it out every time, it's hardly nay more convenient than
using a normal chip/pin card.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.
If I have to take it out every time, it's hardly nay more convenient than
using a normal chip/pin card.

I can't really see that much point in it myself. I assume a lot of
people are finding they are happy doing it rather than get cash out? I
find the reports saying transactions 30% up hard to believe, are
people really thinking I'll buy something because I can just wave this
card?

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Can you give a reference for your claim " ...... they stand any losses
unless they can prove the cardholder made the transaction"?

I saw that several places, wonder where, will look......
This is good page from HSBC:-
re "proximity" look at this:-
<http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/customer-support/card-services/using-your-card/contactless>
Its **2cm** from reader only after a transaction is entered by sales
staff.
"Q. What should I do if my contactless card has been lost or stolen?
A. You should notify us as soon as possible by calling us on 08456 007
010. If anyone has fraudulently used your contactless card to make a
transaction, as long as you have kept your details safe, you will not
be responsible for any losses incurred. "
So same as other cards?
(Barclays had a cock up in the early days where smartphones could read
somebody elses data or something, they were threatened with big
fines).

What was the outcome of the threat?
Jane

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
(Barclays had a cock up in the early days where smartphones could read
somebody elses data or something, they were threatened with big
fines).

What was the outcome of the threat?

I *think* the whole thing was sorted out, nobody actually lost any
money and nobody got fined.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Ophelia
I've heard that if you stand too near the shop scanner and it is in your
pocket, it will register the sale too and the money has been taken.

we all hear a lot of things.

its 2 cms, I also am fairly sure that the transaction has to be set up
for contactless rather than cash, so I think its just the usual
nonsense people like to say.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Ophelia

Post by Ophelia
I've heard that if you stand too near the shop scanner and it is in your
pocket, it will register the sale too and the money has been taken.

we all hear a lot of things.
http://youtu.be/JGRxyWr19lU
I cannot find the exact distance but its inches not feet "close
proximity".

It is said to be, but anecdotally, isn't.

Post by Mike.. . . .
The thing here is you can react two ways to new technology:-
1) they are not stupid and will have planned for fairly obvious
potential problems

Ha! You really believe that? You're more gullible than I had thought.

Post by Mike.. . . .
2) its a new fangled idea and I will never trust it and will believe
anything negative anybody says.

I willinspect and evaluate anything negative or positive that anyone says.

So far, I've heard nothing which would make a contactless card attractive.

Post by Mike.. . . .
This group seems firmly in (2)

No, I'd say that the members of this group are suspicious of anything
the banks foist on you to save _them_ money.

I have a sort-of feeling that contactless cards are goingto bite the
banks in the ars^h^h^backside.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Ophelia
In that case I would keep it in a case lined with foil. The bank should be
made to cover such losses I think, especially if you have told them you
don't want a contactless card!

the banks long ago said they stand any losses unless they can prove
the cardholder made the transaction.

And have you any evidence that they are living up to this statement?
We had a thread about this in the Shed - I'll see if I can find it.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
I cannot find the exact distance but its inches not feet "close
proximity".

It is said to be, but anecdotally, isn't.

Any evidence?

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
The thing here is you can react two ways to new technology:-
1) they are not stupid and will have planned for fairly obvious
potential problems

Ha! You really believe that? You're more gullible than I had thought.

Yes I do. I'm not gullible, I have just got the sense to see these
sophisticated organisations are not so stupid as to make basic easy to
foresee mistakes. It isn't even new. No doubt there will be some fraud
as with credit cards generally, but it will not be from the blindingly
obvious mistakes rumoured.

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
2) its a new fangled idea and I will never trust it and will believe
anything negative anybody says.

I will inspect and evaluate anything negative or positive that anyone says.

Will you? Did you check that they cannot be read as you pass a shop?

Post by RustyHinge
So far, I've heard nothing which would make a contactless card attractive.

No doubt, but what is useful here is factual information.

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
This group seems firmly in (2)

No, I'd say that the members of this group are suspicious of anything
the banks foist on you to save _them_ money.

the motive for them isn't to "save money", its to make more commission
by turning small cash transactions into card transactions

Post by RustyHinge
I have a sort-of feeling that contactless cards are goingto bite the
banks in the ars^h^h^backside.

see (2) above

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Ophelia
In that case I would keep it in a case lined with foil. The bank should be
made to cover such losses I think, especially if you have told them you
don't want a contactless card!

the banks long ago said they stand any losses unless they can prove
the cardholder made the transaction.

And have you any evidence that they are living up to this statement?

have you any they are not?

Post by RustyHinge
We had a thread about this in the Shed - I'll see if I can find it.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
I cannot find the exact distance but its inches not feet "close
proximity".

It is said to be, but anecdotally, isn't.

Any evidence?

I've posted first in Shed Fred lower down: use the ID number, or better,
subscribe to the Shed (uk.rec.sheds) to read the lot in sequence -
they're still on E-S's server.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
The thing here is you can react two ways to new technology:-
1) they are not stupid and will have planned for fairly obvious
potential problems

Ha! You really believe that? You're more gullible than I had thought.

Yes I do. I'm not gullible, I have just got the sense to see these
sophisticated organisations are not so stupid as to make basic easy to
foresee mistakes. It isn't even new. No doubt there will be some fraud
as with credit cards generally, but it will not be from the blindingly
obvious mistakes rumoured.

You obviously haven't been keeping up with the news - the banks have
been *very* silly quite recently, and lost billions through inattention
to process.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
2) its a new fangled idea and I will never trust it and will believe
anything negative anybody says.

I will inspect and evaluate anything negative or positive that anyone says.

Will you? Did you check that they cannot be read as you pass a shop?

That's unliely, unless a long-range scanner can be invented. This would
entail the use of an amplifier and a multi-element yagi at the very least.

No, read the thread and you will (if my memory of it is correct) see
that not all the bad press is anecdotal.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
So far, I've heard nothing which would make a contactless card attractive.

No doubt, but what is useful here is factual information.

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
This group seems firmly in (2)

No, I'd say that the members of this group are suspicious of anything
the banks foist on you to save _them_ money.

the motive for them isn't to "save money", its to make more commission
by turning small cash transactions into card transactions

So, more money - or rather, less cost.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
I have a sort-of feeling that contactless cards are goingto bite the
banks in the ars^h^h^backside.

see (2) above

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Ophelia
In that case I would keep it in a case lined with foil. The bank should be
made to cover such losses I think, especially if you have told them you
don't want a contactless card!

the banks long ago said they stand any losses unless they can prove
the cardholder made the transaction.

And have you any evidence that they are living up to this statement?

have you any they are not?

read the thread.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
We had a thread about this in the Shed - I'll see if I can find it.

Found it!

Have you?

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
Yes I do. I'm not gullible, I have just got the sense to see these
sophisticated organisations are not so stupid as to make basic easy to
foresee mistakes. It isn't even new. No doubt there will be some fraud
as with credit cards generally, but it will not be from the blindingly
obvious mistakes rumoured.

You obviously haven't been keeping up with the news - the banks have
been *very* silly quite recently, and lost billions through inattention
to process.

I've seen lots of bad selling and all the stuff that started with sub
primes, I've not seen anything in this sort of area

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
2) its a new fangled idea and I will never trust it and will believe
anything negative anybody says.

I will inspect and evaluate anything negative or positive that anyone says.

Will you? Did you check that they cannot be read as you pass a shop?

That's unliely, unless a long-range scanner can be invented. This would
entail the use of an amplifier and a multi-element yagi at the very least.

*I* know its unlikely, it wasn't me who said it was a risk

Post by RustyHinge
No, read the thread and you will (if my memory of it is correct) see
that not all the bad press is anecdotal.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
So far, I've heard nothing which would make a contactless card attractive.

No doubt, but what is useful here is factual information.

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
This group seems firmly in (2)

No, I'd say that the members of this group are suspicious of anything
the banks foist on you to save _them_ money.

the motive for them isn't to "save money", its to make more commission
by turning small cash transactions into card transactions

So, more money - or rather, less cost.

no, more income.

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
I have a sort-of feeling that contactless cards are goingto bite the
banks in the ars^h^h^backside.

see (2) above

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Ophelia
In that case I would keep it in a case lined with foil. The bank should be
made to cover such losses I think, especially if you have told them you
don't want a contactless card!

the banks long ago said they stand any losses unless they can prove
the cardholder made the transaction.

And have you any evidence that they are living up to this statement?

have you any they are not?

read the thread.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
We had a thread about this in the Shed - I'll see if I can find it.

Found it!
Have you?

no

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
Will you? Did you check that they cannot be read as you pass a shop?

"That's unliely, unless a long-range scanner can be invented. This
would entail the use of an amplifier and a multi-element yagi at the
very least."

"Quite - but if it isn't in an allyjacket or similar, it can be
skimmed in the street too, while it's in your pocket/wallet."

*I'm* contradicting myself?

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
Will you? Did you check that they cannot be read as you pass a shop?

"That's unliely, unless a long-range scanner can be invented. This
would entail the use of an amplifier and a multi-element yagi at the
very least."
"Quite - but if it isn't in an allyjacket or similar, it can be
skimmed in the street too, while it's in your pocket/wallet."
*I'm* contradicting myself?

There's a _slight_ difference between 'passing a shop' and being jostled
on the pavement. (Sidewalk, to our Transpondian cohort.)

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
"That's unliely, unless a long-range scanner can be invented. This
would entail the use of an amplifier and a multi-element yagi at the
very least."
"Quite - but if it isn't in an allyjacket or similar, it can be
skimmed in the street too, while it's in your pocket/wallet."
*I'm* contradicting myself?

There's a _slight_ difference between 'passing a shop' and being jostled
on the pavement. (Sidewalk, to our Transpondian cohort.)

Ok, fair enough, like the difference between the clearing banks and a
social networking site originally set up for nerds to pull students!

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
r nerds to pull students!

should be "geeks", I think, possibly both.

[Tim C.]

Post by RustyHinge
I willinspect and evaluate anything negative or positive that anyone says.
So far, I've heard nothing which would make a contactless card attractive.

+1

[Phil Cook]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Ophelia

Post by Ophelia
I've heard that if you stand too near the shop scanner and it is in your
pocket, it will register the sale too and the money has been taken.

we all hear a lot of things.
http://youtu.be/JGRxyWr19lU
I cannot find the exact distance but its inches not feet "close
proximity".
The thing here is you can react two ways to new technology:-
1) they are not stupid and will have planned for fairly obvious
potential problems
2) its a new fangled idea and I will never trust it and will believe
anything negative anybody says.

At least as far as using one to pay a bus fare I have found I have to
present my wallet the right way round, the "oyster" reader doesn't
seem to be able to see the card past the change in the coin pocket.

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
1) they are not stupid and will have planned for fairly obvious
potential problems
2) its a new fangled idea and I will never trust it and will believe
anything negative anybody says.
This group seems firmly in (2)

I'll wait until it's been around a while, thankyou.
Then I'll see if it's worth it. Some ideas - like the "Quick" electronic
wallet on debit cards here - turned out to be pretty useless and never
really get used for much other than car-park machines.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Ophelia

Post by Ophelia
I've heard that if you stand too near the shop scanner and it is in your
pocket, it will register the sale too and the money has been taken.

we all hear a lot of things.
http://youtu.be/JGRxyWr19lU
I cannot find the exact distance but its inches not feet "close
proximity".

Did hear of a case a while ago. Can't give a ref.
Roughly, what happened, AIRI, was:
. Customer at checkout was told the amount to pay
. Put the card she chose to use for payment into the machine
. Before she could enter the PIN, the transaction completed automatically
using another card she had in her handbag.

<snip>

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Ophelia
In that case I would keep it in a case lined with foil.

Since reading the above I keep my card case between two sheets of aluminium
foil** in my handbag; no idea if it protects the cards or not.

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Ophelia
The bank should be
made to cover such losses I think, especially if you have told them you
don't want a contactless card!

the banks long ago said they stand any losses unless they can prove
the cardholder made the transaction.

Can you give a quote which the banks will have to honour please?

Jane

**Foil gets scrunched up so I keep each sheet in its own plastic folder I
bought from the Post Office.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Can you give a quote which the banks will have to honour please?

did so elsewhere

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Did hear of a case a while ago. Can't give a ref.
. Customer at checkout was told the amount to pay
. Put the card she chose to use for payment into the machine
. Before she could enter the PIN, the transaction completed automatically
using another card she had in her handbag.

some say this has happened, others say its rumours. If it has, its
hardly the end of the world, the wrong card taking the charge. I'm not
in the habit of leaving my wallet in 2cms of somebody else making a
payment. Are you? The important thing is the stories about getting
scanned by crims in the street seems to be paranoia, which is always
rife with something new.

I heard that if you have a Facebook account, contactless cards will
send the FBI your "selfies" and Mossad will come and kill you. I now
carry my cards in a lead box on wheels and wear a paper bag over my
head.

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
and wear a paper bag over my
head.

You see, Mike, that's where you're going completely wrong.
It should be a colander on your head.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.

Post by Mike.. . . .
and wear a paper bag over my
head.

You see, Mike, that's where you're going completely wrong.
It should be a colander on your head.

Hah, how wrong you are. I have a colander *under* the bag. Do you
think I'm some sort of fool?

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.

Post by Mike.. . . .
and wear a paper bag over my
head.

You see, Mike, that's where you're going completely wrong.
It should be a colander on your head.

Hah, how wrong you are. I have a colander *under* the bag. Do you
think I'm some sort of fool?

lol!

[Janet]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
Did hear of a case a while ago. Can't give a ref.
. Customer at checkout was told the amount to pay
. Put the card she chose to use for payment into the machine
. Before she could enter the PIN, the transaction completed automatically
using another card she had in her handbag.

some say this has happened, others say its rumours. If it has, its
hardly the end of the world, the wrong card taking the charge.

There are plenty of people counting every penny for whom an unexpected
£20 deficit, could be a real problem or embarrassment. For instance, if
their rent is due by DD the next day; or a personal-shopping deficit
taken from their employers or business expense account.

Janet

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Jane Gillett
Did hear of a case a while ago. Can't give a ref.
. Customer at checkout was told the amount to pay
. Put the card she chose to use for payment into the machine
. Before she could enter the PIN, the transaction completed automatically
using another card she had in her handbag.

This article from The Guardian, 26 October 2013?
http://tinyurl.com/q9rm6pp

Malcolm

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Jane Gillett
Did hear of a case a while ago. Can't give a ref.
. Customer at checkout was told the amount to pay
. Put the card she chose to use for payment into the machine
. Before she could enter the PIN, the transaction completed automatically
using another card she had in her handbag.

This article from The Guardian, 26 October 2013?
http://tinyurl.com/q9rm6pp

And this one http://tinyurl.com/bdbrdqq

Malcolm

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
And this one http://tinyurl.com/bdbrdqq

already posted that one :-) How does this compare with the chance of
being short changed with cash? (Just to keep our feet on the ground).

[Janet]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
And this one http://tinyurl.com/bdbrdqq

already posted that one :-) How does this compare with the chance of
being short changed with cash? (Just to keep our feet on the ground).

The shopper has fair chance to count their cash change and notice a
shortfall. They are not likely to notice £20 missing from the wrong card
account, until the next statement.

Janet

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Janet

Post by Janet
The shopper has fair chance to count their cash change and notice a
shortfall. They are not likely to notice £20 missing from the wrong card
account, until the next statement.

Its not missing, its on the wrong card, the short change is missing. I
take your point about people on limit or with somebody else's card in
wallet (latter applies to me). In most cases its going to be annoying
rather than a loss. They do need ot fix it though.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
This article from The Guardian, 26 October 2013?
http://tinyurl.com/q9rm6pp

so the machine does not distinguish between contactless/non
contactless. So if you hold your contactless next to the machine it
will assume thats the one you are using. OK, glad I know that, cant
say it bothers me as much as the customer in the article! Why didnt
M&S just cancel the transaction and start again?

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Am I alone in not wanting a card which, if I lost it

"If your card is lost or stolen, call us as soon as possible on our
24-hour emergency cards hotline [phone], visit a branch or let
us know through the Barclays Mobile Banking app.

Can someone steal my Contactless debit card and use its technology to
empty my bank account?
In a word, no. If someone makes several Contactless payments in a row,
they'll be prompted to enter the card's PIN for security validation
purposes. Contactless transactions are further protected by the fact
that they can only be made on items totalling £20 or less. For
transactions above that amount, the payee will be asked to make a Chip
& PIN payment in the usual way.

Do look after your card and keep your pin secure but if your card does
become lost or stolen, let us know immediately and we'll cancel and
replace it for you.

Remember: should you experience card fraud, provided you report your
card lost or stolen or misused, and you have not acted fraudulently or
without reasonable care, you will not be liable for any fraudulent
transactions."

The problem, prsumably arises if you do not realize its lost for some
time?

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Am I alone in not wanting a card which, if I lost it

"If your card is lost or stolen, call us as soon as possible on our
24-hour emergency cards hotline [phone], visit a branch or let
us know through the Barclays Mobile Banking app.
Can someone steal my Contactless debit card and use its technology to
empty my bank account?
In a word, no. If someone makes several Contactless payments in a row,
they'll be prompted to enter the card's PIN for security validation
purposes. Contactless transactions are further protected by the fact
that they can only be made on items totalling £20 or less. For
transactions above that amount, the payee will be asked to make a Chip
& PIN payment in the usual way.
Do look after your card and keep your pin secure but if your card does
become lost or stolen, let us know immediately and we'll cancel and
replace it for you.
Remember: should you experience card fraud, provided you report your
card lost or stolen or misused, and you have not acted fraudulently or
without reasonable care, you will not be liable for any fraudulent
transactions."

Once I left my card in the payment machine of the supermarket
self-checkout. Rang later and customer services had the card. Had it
been contactless the shopper after me might feel more tempted to not
hand it in. I'm sure the bank would claim I'd not taken reasonable care
if it were fraudulently used.

Post by Mike.. . . .
The problem, prsumably arises if you do not realize its lost for some
time?

I wouldn't know that I'd lost my card until I needed it again, or maybe
a credit card from the same card wallet. This could be anything between
a few hours and going to bed at night when my pockets get emptied. If a
contactless card should fall out of your pocket its the same as £100
cash falling out of your pocket (the value of 5 x £20 contactless
purchases made before being asked for a PIN).

Malcolm

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

Post by Malcolm Loades
Once I left my card in the payment machine of the supermarket
self-checkout. Rang later and customer services had the card. Had it
been contactless the shopper after me might feel more tempted to not
hand it in. I'm sure the bank would claim I'd not taken reasonable care
if it were fraudulently used.

There is no need to put a contactless card in a machine. The card is
read when it is just passing the area. I'll stick to credit cards!

Steve

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
The card is
read when it is just passing the area.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
The card is
read when it is just passing the area.

i think its just a couple of inches

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:54:11 +0000, Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
The card is
read when it is just passing the area.

i think its just a couple of inches

Yes, that about it but the sensor range is adjustable. The technology
has been around for about 30 years. I worked at a place in Manchester
that had automatic doors which opened as soon as any ID card was seen.
Magnetic card reading is catching up.

What we really should be worried about are checkouts with built in
face recognition!

Steve

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
What we really should be worried about are checkouts with built in
face recognition!

Yes, I don't want this FB thing where they know what FB thinks you
like. I avoid useful photos on FB and all my info there is
intentionally wrong.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
What we really should be worried about are checkouts with built in
face recognition!

Yes, I don't want this FB thing where they know what FB thinks you
like. I avoid useful photos on FB and all my info there is
intentionally wrong.

Hmmmm.

On the one hand you're asking us to be more trusting,while on the other...

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
Yes, I don't want this FB thing where they know what FB thinks you
like. I avoid useful photos on FB and all my info there is
intentionally wrong.

Hmmmm.
On the one hand you're asking us to be more trusting,while on the other...

Its not about trust. Its not about gullability. Its about assesing
situations on the *facts*, each one is different.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
Yes, I don't want this FB thing where they know what FB thinks you
like. I avoid useful photos on FB and all my info there is
intentionally wrong.

Hmmmm.
On the one hand you're asking us to be more trusting,while on the other...

Its not about trust. Its not about gullability. Its about assesing
situations on the *facts*, each one is different.

You're contradicting yourself.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
On the one hand you're asking us to be more trusting,while on the other...

Its not about trust. Its not about gullability. Its about assesing
situations on the *facts*, each one is different.

You're contradicting yourself.

not in the slightest.

[Mike.. . . .]

and another thing.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
On the one hand you're asking us to be more trusting,while on the other...

Its not about trust. Its not about gullability. Its about assesing
situations on the *facts*, each one is different.

You're contradicting yourself.

not in the slightest.

based on an hour or so of looking at it, I would be fairly confident
using a contactless card.

Face recognition and personal data on FB being used for advertising
and sales support I'm not so happy about.

I don't see why theres any contradiction there.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
and another thing.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by RustyHinge
On the one hand you're asking us to be more trusting,while on the other...

Its not about trust. Its not about gullability. Its about assesing
situations on the *facts*, each one is different.

You're contradicting yourself.

not in the slightest.

based on an hour or so of looking at it, I would be fairly confident
using a contactless card.
Face recognition and personal data on FB being used for advertising
and sales support I'm not so happy about.
I don't see why theres any contradiction there.

I wasn't refering to face recognition, of which I have none but the
haziest knowledge - but so much pointless argument has been going on I
can't unforget what you were saying, or where - and I'm not about to go
searching.

_I_ shall leave it until these things have been aboutlong enough for
experience to hit the users.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 13:57:32 +0000, Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
What we really should be worried about are checkouts with built in
face recognition!

Yes, I don't want this FB thing where they know what FB thinks you
like. I avoid useful photos on FB and all my info there is
intentionally wrong.

I've never used FB but, so far as I know, it's nothing to do with face
recognition.

Steve

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Mike.. . . .
Yes, I don't want this FB thing where they know what FB thinks you
like. I avoid useful photos on FB and all my info there is
intentionally wrong.

I've never used FB but, so far as I know, it's nothing to do with face
recognition.

they have a project to use face recognition so the shop would have
info on you from FB when you walk in.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Mike.. . . .
Yes, I don't want this FB thing where they know what FB thinks you
like. I avoid useful photos on FB and all my info there is
intentionally wrong.

I've never used FB but, so far as I know, it's nothing to do with face
recognition.

they have a project to use face recognition so the shop would have
info on you from FB when you walk in.

What shop?

Well, I've never used Facebook, and even if I had done, I can say with
some confidence that there would have been no photo/webcam image of me
there.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Mike.. . . .
they have a project to use face recognition so the shop would have
info on you from FB when you walk in.

What shop?

shops

Post by RustyHinge
Well, I've never used Facebook,

why am I not surprised?

Post by RustyHinge
and even if I had done, I can say with
some confidence that there would have been no photo/webcam image of me
there.

then you would be wrong because a friend might post an image of you
and tag it.
I regard FB as irritating re targeted advertising. As it has one or
two features I like to use, I mainly use it anonymously. (there is a
food group on it, many of the members of this group have moved to
there, its probably only a matter of time before usenet dies out, most
people under 30 use Twiitter & FB and have never heard of usenet).

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:54:11 +0000, Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
The card is
read when it is just passing the area.

i think its just a couple of inches

Yes, that about it but the sensor range is adjustable. The technology
has been around for about 30 years. I worked at a place in Manchester
that had automatic doors which opened as soon as any ID card was seen.
Magnetic card reading is catching up.
What we really should be worried about are checkouts with built in
face recognition!

Shouldn't that make them safer - if, maybe, more inconvneient when they
cannot recognise you.

Of course, they will be able to keep tabs on what you buy - but I assume
they already do that if it's useful to them.

OR should we ALL start wearing veils, not just Moslem women?

Jane

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
Steve

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
OR should we ALL start wearing veils, not just Moslem women?

my paper bag and colander are perfectly adequate

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
OR should we ALL start wearing veils, not just Moslem women?

my paper bag and colander are perfectly adequate

But think how fetching a veil could be.......

Cheers
Jane

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme
The card is
read when it is just passing the area.

i think its just a couple of inches

I think Steve is right.

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Malcolm Loades
Once I left my card in the payment machine of the supermarket
self-checkout. Rang later and customer services had the card. Had it
been contactless the shopper after me might feel more tempted to not
hand it in. I'm sure the bank would claim I'd not taken reasonable care
if it were fraudulently used.

There is no need to put a contactless card in a machine. The card is
read when it is just passing the area. I'll stick to credit cards!

You do need to put a contactless card into the machine and enter a PIN
number if the transaction value exceeds £20. Credit cards aren't
accepted by some retailers eg Aldi and Lidl. They do accept debit cards
and contactless for sub £20 Credit cards are expensive to use for
machine cash withdrawls.

Malcolm

[graham]

I'll stick to credit cards!
They are going that way too!
Graham

[RustyHinge]

Post by Malcolm Loades
I wouldn't know that I'd lost my card until I needed it again, or maybe
a credit card from the same card wallet. This could be anything between
a few hours and going to bed at night when my pockets get emptied. If a
contactless card should fall out of your pocket its the same as £100
cash falling out of your pocket (the value of 5 x £20 contactless
purchases made before being asked for a PIN).

I've onlyused my card to pay for something once in the last two or three
years.

Yes, I said years,

I use it around once a month for paying money into my account, so that
my standing orders don't go boing-boing-boing.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
Am I alone in not wanting a card which, if I lost it

"If your card is lost or stolen, call us as soon as possible on our
24-hour emergency cards hotline [phone], visit a branch or let
us know through the Barclays Mobile Banking app.
Can someone steal my Contactless debit card and use its technology to
empty my bank account?
In a word, no. If someone makes several Contactless payments in a row,
they'll be prompted to enter the card's PIN for security validation
purposes. Contactless transactions are further protected by the fact
that they can only be made on items totalling £20 or less. For
transactions above that amount, the payee will be asked to make a Chip
& PIN payment in the usual way.
Do look after your card and keep your pin secure but if your card does
become lost or stolen, let us know immediately and we'll cancel and
replace it for you.
Remember: should you experience card fraud, provided you report your
card lost or stolen or misused, and you have not acted fraudulently or
without reasonable care, you will not be liable for any fraudulent
transactions."
The problem, prsumably arises if you do not realize its lost for some
time?

IF the card is fraudulently/accidentally used <"by proximity"> ie jostling,
close passing, near a reader etc

THEN it does not have to be actually <lost> and you may not realise until
the statement comes in that the use has happened.
Jane

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
IF the card is fraudulently/accidentally used <"by proximity"> ie jostling,
close passing, near a reader etc

"The reports of contactless charging errors on buses and in stores
will have left some people nervous – and have prompted a flurry of
theories about what's wrong with the technology and how you can
protect yourself. But are people just peddling scare stories? We
rounded up some comments attached to one of this week's Guardian
articles and put them to two experts: Dave Birch of Consult Hyperion,
which provides consultancy into electronic transactions, and Mark
Austin, head of contactless at Visa Europe.

There have been stories of people edging up behind you in a bar or a
bus queue and reading your card

DB: I am not aware of any reputably -sourced incident of this ever
happening.

If you weren't arrested for waving your phone around people's arses on
the tube, it's pointless anyway, because you can't use the data to do
anything."

So no.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Malcolm Loades
I'm trying to find out if it's only me!
My bank has sent me a new debit card to replace the one which expires at
the end of this month and this new card can be used contactlessly. I
don't want a contactless card so rang them up asking for what I'd call a
'regular' debit card. No can do! "We don't offer a debit card without
this facility".

Tell them you will change your bank, then.

Nationwide do not do contactless cards, BTW- I asked specially because I
didn't want one either.

Post by Malcolm Loades
It seems that all the major banks are replacing their debit cards with
ones which can be used contactlessly.

ITYM
It seems that all the major banks are replacing their debit cards with
ones which can be robbed contactlessly.

Post by Malcolm Loades
Am I alone in not wanting a card which, if I lost it, could buy the
finder a MacDonalds meal, their shopping in Lidl, coffee and eats in
Starbucks, the tube to get home and magazines to read on the way etc
etc. before I realised I'd lost the card and told the bank to block it?
Each purchase would have be less than £20 and after 5 or 6 uses the bank
tell me it would ask for my PIN number. By that time I'd be £100 to
£120 out of pocket.

Quite - but if it isn't in an allyjacket or similar, it can be skimmed
in the street too, while it's in your pocket/wallet.

So, you may guess that I won't have one either.

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Malcolm Loades
I'm trying to find out if it's only me!
My bank has sent me a new debit card to replace the one which expires at
the end of this month and this new card can be used contactlessly. I
don't want a contactless card so rang them up asking for what I'd call a
'regular' debit card. No can do! "We don't offer a debit card without
this facility".

Tell them you will change your bank, then.

I have!

Post by RustyHinge
Nationwide do not do contactless cards, BTW- I asked specially because
I didn't want one either.

It's finding an alternative which is proving the problem, I'm currently
with first direct.

I've spoken with HSBC, Lloyds, Barclays and NatWest are all which give
new customers contactless cards. Existing customers can either request
one now, if they don't it will issued when their existing one expires.
None of those banks offer an opt out option. You may not have one yet
but it's coming soon :-(

RBS issue them but do offer a limited form of opt out - a debit card
which will only work on terminals with direct connection to the banking
system. Terminals on aircraft etc. wont accept that type of debit card.

Santander looked like a good bet but a visit to my local branch elicited
the information that they too will make them the only debit card they
issue in 12 weeks time.

Personally, I'm not keen on Nationwide but maybe I must waive my
prejudice and pay them a visit and ask where they stand.

There are two non-contactless options, but they cost. Handelsbanken
with a £25 p/month account charge and Coutts at £150 p/quarter.

Malcolm

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
There are two non-contactless options, but they cost. Handelsbanken
with a £25 p/month account charge and Coutts at £150 p/quarter.

it will be the norm I'm guessing so you would be wasting your time.
Looks to me like the risk is minimal, no doubt at some time fraudsters
will either steal a terminal or replicate it, but then the bank will
give you your money back. Less risk than the illegal scanners that get
fixed to hole in the wall machines or a thug looking over your
shoulder then mugging you.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Malcolm Loades
Personally, I'm not keen on Nationwide but maybe I must waive my
prejudice and pay them a visit and ask where they stand.
There are two non-contactless options, but they cost. Handelsbanken
with a £25 p/month account charge and Coutts at £150 p/quarter.

I haven't had any problems with Nationwide - I've had an account there
since the mid 1980s

Debit card costs nothing.

I have an account with Halifax too, but that's a cash-and-book savings
account, so cards are not an issue. My pension is paid directly into a
Post Office card account, and you can't use that for anything other than
drawing cash from a Post Office.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Malcolm Loades

Post by RustyHinge

Post by Malcolm Loades
I'm trying to find out if it's only me!
My bank has sent me a new debit card to replace the one which expires at
the end of this month and this new card can be used contactlessly. I
don't want a contactless card so rang them up asking for what I'd call a
'regular' debit card. No can do! "We don't offer a debit card without
this facility".

Tell them you will change your bank, then.

I have!

Post by RustyHinge
Nationwide do not do contactless cards, BTW- I asked specially because
I didn't want one either.

It's finding an alternative which is proving the problem, I'm currently
with first direct.
I've spoken with HSBC, Lloyds, Barclays and NatWest are all which give
new customers contactless cards. Existing customers can either request
one now, if they don't it will issued when their existing one expires.
None of those banks offer an opt out option. You may not have one yet
but it's coming soon :-(
RBS issue them but do offer a limited form of opt out - a debit card
which will only work on terminals with direct connection to the banking
system. Terminals on aircraft etc. wont accept that type of debit card.
Santander looked like a good bet but a visit to my local branch elicited
the information that they too will make them the only debit card they
issue in 12 weeks time.
Personally, I'm not keen on Nationwide but maybe I must waive my
prejudice and pay them a visit and ask where they stand.
There are two non-contactless options, but they cost. Handelsbanken
with a £25 p/month account charge and Coutts at £150 p/quarter.

Thanks for the info but I'm still looking for a bank which has a branch
which is conveient for me to visit ie not far away and I can park. That's
been the case since Halifax was taken over by Loyds and they ditched me by
closing the only agencies within reasonable access. They did say that
simple things like imput and withdrawal would be handled by Loyds branches
but did not actually implement it.

I don't like telephone banking or online banking - would much prefer to go
and do what I want to do over a counter.

Jane

Post by Malcolm Loades
Malcolm

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
I don't like telephone banking or online banking - would much prefer to go
and do what I want to do over a counter.

I have two bank accounts, I've never been to either of the branches,
one, I'm not even sure where it is.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge
Quite - but if it isn't in an allyjacket or similar, it can be skimmed
in the street too, while it's in your pocket/wallet.

<http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-1707472/Are-contactless-payments-safe.html>

I can understand that people may be worried that losing their
contactless card could lead to fraudulent activity on their bank
account, but the industry has recognised this and built in a number of
security features.

Post by RustyHinge

First of all, the technology in the card's chip and the

retailer's terminal ensures that money can only be taken off the card
as a result of a normal retail transaction (in other words someone
could not take money off the card merely by having some other form of
reader in close proximity to your wallet or handbag).<<<<

Secondly, the maximum transaction one can make on a contactless card
is £15 and cardholders will be asked to enter their PIN number after a
certain number of transactions, for example after every five or 10
transactions; the exact number is not set in stone so fraudsters do
not know exactly how many purchases they can make without being asked
for a PIN.


There is a risk of fraud with any form of card transaction, and
contactless transactions are no different. But risk is limited by the
security measures put in place.

Post by RustyHinge

Banks are also required to refund any losses incurred by

cardholders unless the bank can prove that the cardholder actually
made the transaction themselves<<<<.

Contactless technology should be a huge benefit to cardholders
nationwide. Over 10 million cards have been issued already in the UK
and fraud losses are tiny in comparison.

It is vital to the industry that card usage is a positive experience
for customers, so you can be confident that everything is being done
to make contactless as safe and secure as it can be.

Read more:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-1707472/Are-contactless-payments-safe.html#ixzz2qTEumfVx
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

Post by Malcolm Loades
I'm trying to find out if it's only me!
My bank has sent me a new debit card to replace the one which expires at
the end of this month and this new card can be used contactlessly. I
don't want a contactless card so rang them up asking for what I'd call a
'regular' debit card. No can do! "We don't offer a debit card without
this facility".
It seems that all the major banks are replacing their debit cards with
ones which can be used contactlessly.

Lloyds do a contactless credit card. I assume it carries the same
credit guarantees as a normal credit card. If so I will use it rather
than a debit card.

Steve

[Malcolm Loades]

There is one very simple solution for people who don't want to have the
contactless facility. Amend the software to require the PIN number to
be entered on the first attempt to make a contactless payment. If, like
me you never want the facility to be active, don't make a first
contactless payment.

Obviously the call centre person at my bank can't tell me why the bank
haven't set it up like this. They tell me that once the card has been
used for one Chip and PIN transaction that that activates the card in
full and contactless use is then possible. They say all banks do this.

Malcolm

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
There is one very simple solution for people who don't want to have the
contactless facility. Amend the software to require the PIN number to
be entered on the first attempt to make a contactless payment. If, like
me you never want the facility to be active, don't make a first
contactless payment.

that would have been a very good idea to reassure people.

[RustyHinge]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
There is one very simple solution for people who don't want to have the
contactless facility. Amend the software to require the PIN number to
be entered on the first attempt to make a contactless payment. If, like
me you never want the facility to be active, don't make a first
contactless payment.

that would have been a very good idea to reassure people.

First in thread in Shed:

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From: R C Nesbit <***@ukrm.net>
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Subject: Isn't new technology just wonderfull?
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 10:16:20 +0100
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Contactless cards.

And a comment from another thread:



One of our local conwenience stores put one in a while ago
- they took it out pretty sharpish.
M&S appears to be a little more persistent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22545804

(Note: The URL may have gone since that post...)

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by RustyHinge

Post by RustyHinge
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22545804

that is a worry if its going to keep happening.

[Tim C.]

Post by Malcolm Loades
I'm trying to find out if it's only me!
My bank has sent me a new debit card to replace the one which expires at
the end of this month and this new card can be used contactlessly. I
don't want a contactless card so rang them up asking for what I'd call a
'regular' debit card. No can do! "We don't offer a debit card without
this facility".

Try rewording your request to have the facility deactivated. Rather than a
card without the facility.

All new cards here have it as well. Some banks have it switched on by
default, and some switched off. You can request them to turn it off or on
as you wish.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.
All new cards here have it as well. Some banks have it switched on by
default, and some switched off. You can request them to turn it off or on
as you wish.

<http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/may/25/facts-fiction-contactless-cards>

Cant find any reference to that for UK, people are cutting the aerial
wires and wearing tinfoil hats just in case

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.
All new cards here have it as well. Some banks have it switched on by
default, and some switched off. You can request them to turn it off or on
as you wish.

<http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/may/25/facts-fiction-contactless-cards>
Cant find any reference to that for UK, people are cutting the aerial
wires and wearing tinfoil hats just in case

from that article:
"MA: A suitably skilled person could build an app to read a card, but they
would only be able to take the information from the front – not the
three-digit code on the back and not the pin – that's not enough to make a
payment."


In Austria and I some other European countries like Switzerland and Germany
use the cashpoint card to pay at tills almost everywhere. There is no
3-digit code on the bank. And the contactless NFC cards don't need a PIN
(until the limit is reached) So that argument for safety might only apply
to some countries.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.
In Austria and I some other European countries like Switzerland and Germany
use the cashpoint card to pay at tills almost everywhere. There is no
3-digit code on the bank. And the contactless NFC cards don't need a PIN
(until the limit is reached) So that argument for safety might only apply
to some countries.

do people in Austria find problems with contactless?

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.
In Austria and I some other European countries like Switzerland and Germany
use the cashpoint card to pay at tills almost everywhere. There is no
3-digit code on the bank. And the contactless NFC cards don't need a PIN
(until the limit is reached) So that argument for safety might only apply
to some countries.

do people in Austria find problems with contactless?

They haven't been around long enough. All new ones from the start of this
year are with NFC. I don't know anyone who has one yet.

[Malcolm Loades]

Post by Tim C.

Post by Malcolm Loades
I'm trying to find out if it's only me!
My bank has sent me a new debit card to replace the one which expires at
the end of this month and this new card can be used contactlessly. I
don't want a contactless card so rang them up asking for what I'd call a
'regular' debit card. No can do! "We don't offer a debit card without
this facility".

Try rewording your request to have the facility deactivated. Rather than a
card without the facility.

Have asked and it's not possible.

Post by Tim C.
All new cards here have it as well. Some banks have it switched on by
default, and some switched off. You can request them to turn it off or on
as you wish.

Here it's activated after the card has been used for one Chip 'n PIN
transaction. Which is absolutely stupid! I believe it should be
activated after the first contactless transaction which would require
the PIN for first use. Of course I'm going to make a Chip 'n PIN
transaction with a debit card if it's only to withdraw cash at the hole
in the wall and that transaction has then activated contactless which I
don't want and will never use myself. However, anyone else getting hold
of my card can now spend on it.

The contactless system is being driven by retailers and the banks who
both have vested interests in its use. Research has shown that
retailers have had a 30% increase in small value transactions after the
introduction of contactless payments so that's why they want it. The
banks want it because their transaction charge income increases in line
with its use.

What are benefits for the customer? A saving of the couple of seconds
it takes to push five buttons (4 digits and an OK) so you get out of the
shop quicker. Secondly, if you're damned lazy you may not have to take
your card out of the wallet to pay. That's it! Unless anyone can think
of anything else.

Malcolm

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Malcolm Loades

Post by Malcolm Loades
What are benefits for the customer?

nothing I can see. Its easy to disable the Ariel round the edge of the
card with a small knife cut BTW.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
disable the Ariel

my spellcheck seems to assume I write Shakespeare reviews rather than
usenet yah boos.

For the record, to make your card safe, do not kick a thesp in the
goolies. It will not work.

Seems to me the negative issues are:-

1) it might take over the under £20 transaction if you get your
wallet/purse near the machine
2) if lost a crim might run up £100 bill which the bank will refund
unless you were negligent.

positive:-

ummm, not a lot.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
positive:-
ummm, not a lot.

correction, you will not get short changed or given forged note in
change. This probably outweighs the drawbacks.

So all in all its a <shrug> IMHO

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .
disable the Ariel

my spellcheck seems to assume I write Shakespeare reviews rather than
usenet yah boos.
For the record, to make your card safe, do not kick a thesp in the
goolies. It will not work.
Seems to me the negative issues are:-
1) it might take over the under £20 transaction if you get your
wallet/purse near the machine
2) if lost a crim might run up £100 bill which the bank will refund
unless you were negligent.

Don't know about the UK but here it's €100 or so per day. Each day the
limit resets.

As a colleague pointed out, if it's so safe, why is there a limit at all?

Post by Mike.. . . .
positive:-
ummm, not a lot.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Tim C.

Don't know about the UK but here it's €100 or so per day. Each day the
limit resets.
As a colleague pointed out, if it's so safe, why is there a limit at all?

I thought after a few transactions it will ask for pin. Haven't seen
what the daily limit is.

[Tim C.]

Post by Mike.. . . .
I thought after a few transactions it will ask for pin. Haven't seen
what the daily limit is.

When it asks for a PIN, do you have to stick the card in the reader? I
certainly hope so, as if not, it means the machine can read the PIN without
direct contact. Which also means any nifty cracker can also do it and there
will sooner or later be an illegal reader for it.

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.

Post by Mike.. . . .
I thought after a few transactions it will ask for pin. Haven't seen
what the daily limit is.

When it asks for a PIN, do you have to stick the card in the reader?

I thought so. The PIN is in the other chip (on topic).

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Tim C.

Post by Tim C.

Post by Mike.. . . .
I thought after a few transactions it will ask for pin. Haven't seen
what the daily limit is.

When it asks for a PIN, do you have to stick the card in the reader?

I thought so. The PIN is in the other chip (on topic).

This is confirmation of something I haven't been sure of. I was given to
believe that part of the card's security lay in the fact that the PIN was
in the home computer not the card. It seems it is on the card. So it is
available to any agency, criminal or otherwise, to get it if they have the
card.

Jane

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
. So it is
available to any agency, criminal or otherwise, to get it if they have the
card.

if they have the technology, I have not heard of it happening? Google
gives a few US news items that is has, but its probably sour grapes
over thier own out of date approach?

[Mike.. . . .]

and another thing.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
. So it is
available to any agency, criminal or otherwise, to get it if they have the
card.

if they have the technology, I have not heard of it happening? Google
gives a few US news items that is has, but its probably sour grapes
over thier own out of date approach?

Barclays
"How does Chip & PIN work?

A chip embedded in your debit or credit card is at the heart of Chip &
PIN. Chip technology uses sophisticated processing to identify genuine
cards and makes counterfeiting more complex and expensive. The
technology checks the PIN you entered in the keypad against the PIN
held on the chip. This is used to verify your identity instead of
someone checking your signature on a receipt."

Crims go to great length to capture card data by putting devices on
cash machines or by watching you through binoculars or by con man
tactics to get the gullible to hand over pin number, I have not heard
of anybody being able to interrogate a stolen card and get the pin.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
and another thing.. . . .

Post by Mike.. . . .

Post by Jane Gillett
. So it is
available to any agency, criminal or otherwise, to get it if they have the
card.

if they have the technology, I have not heard of it happening? Google
gives a few US news items that is has, but its probably sour grapes
over thier own out of date approach?

Barclays
"How does Chip & PIN work?
A chip embedded in your debit or credit card is at the heart of Chip &
PIN. Chip technology uses sophisticated processing to identify genuine
cards and makes counterfeiting more complex and expensive. The
technology checks the PIN you entered in the keypad against the PIN
held on the chip. This is used to verify your identity instead of
someone checking your signature on a receipt."

If I'm not misunderstanding this is confirmation from Barclays that the PIN
is held on the chip - ie the chip on the card; what other chip is there?

Post by Mike.. . . .
Crims go to great length to capture card data by putting devices on
cash machines or by watching you through binoculars or by con man
tactics to get the gullible to hand over pin number, I have not heard
of anybody being able to interrogate a stolen card and get the pin.

If they haven't yet they will; they have the money to buy the necessary
expertise.
Jane

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
If I'm not misunderstanding this is confirmation from Barclays that the PIN
is held on the chip - ie the chip on the card; what other chip is there?

Yes, on the card

Post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
Crims go to great length to capture card data by putting devices on
cash machines or by watching you through binoculars or by con man
tactics to get the gullible to hand over pin number, I have not heard
of anybody being able to interrogate a stolen card and get the pin.

If they haven't yet they will; they have the money to buy the necessary
expertise.

Not so sure, they have not cracked the new style car keys, hence crims
now have to steal car keys first or hijack. I have no idea what the
technology is of either.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett
If I'm not misunderstanding this is confirmation from Barclays that the PIN
is held on the chip - ie the chip on the card; what other chip is there?

Yes, on the card

Post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
Crims go to great length to capture card data by putting devices on
cash machines or by watching you through binoculars or by con man
tactics to get the gullible to hand over pin number, I have not heard
of anybody being able to interrogate a stolen card and get the pin.

If they haven't yet they will; they have the money to buy the necessary
expertise.

Not so sure, they have not cracked the new style car keys, hence crims
now have to steal car keys first or hijack. I have no idea what the
technology is of either.

"Yet" may be the operative word. of course, if some accompanying security
technology makes it unprofitable they probably won't proceed.

Jane

[Mike.. . . .]

Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
Not so sure, they have not cracked the new style car keys, hence crims
now have to steal car keys first or hijack. I have no idea what the
technology is of either.

"Yet" may be the operative word. of course, if some accompanying security
technology makes it unprofitable they probably won't proceed.

I think that's the position, both car and bank industries are probably
using something expensive to reproduce, easier to try to work round
it.

[Jane Gillett]

Post by Mike.. . . .
Following a post by Jane Gillett

Post by Jane Gillett

Post by Mike.. . . .
Not so sure, they have not cracked the new style car keys, hence crims
now have to steal car keys first or hijack. I have no idea what the
technology is of either.

"Yet" may be the operative word. of course, if some accompanying security
technology makes it unprofitable they probably won't proceed.

I think that's the position, both car and bank industries are probably
using something expensive to reproduce, easier to try to work round
it.

Well, whatever way they get around it.......

Cheers
jane

[Malcolm Loades]

Success!

first direct called me today and they've agreed to give me two (I've two
current accounts) debit cards without the contactless facility.

A bank which has listen to my moaning, and the fact that I was closing
my accounts, actually wants me to stay with them.

Thank you first direct; here's to the next 24 years.

Malcolm

[Tim C.]

Post by Malcolm Loades
Success!
first direct called me today and they've agreed to give me two (I've two
current accounts) debit cards without the contactless facility.
A bank which has listen to my moaning, and the fact that I was closing
my accounts, actually wants me to stay with them.
Thank you first direct; here's to the next 24 years.
Malcolm

result! :)