Following a post by Jane Gillett
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .that was a lie designed to deflect doubts.
Don't know about the original choice of name but certainly a lie
promulgated by Heath.
not just Heath, the whole media
Post by Jane GillettGather from popular myth that DeGaul made the
original rules deliberately to keep UK out as we might have been
enthusiastic enough and strong enough to stop them making the rules they
wanted.
Doesn't make sense, De Gaulle had a veto and used it. "non!"
Post by Jane Gillett<snip>
Post by Mike.. . . .Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .Events in Ukraine show
that the original objective of securing lasting peace in Europe are
not yet irrelevant and an EU loan to replace a Russian one may be key
in securing a democratic future for Ukraine (or not). How might Russia
act with weaker less united* "adversaries"?
From the current situation, I'd say R. as controlled by Putin would take
control of any area it could.
yes, if they think they can, nothing has moved yet and looks less and
less likely as the days pass.
Is this about Ukraine?
where else?
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .Russia would not join of course for the same reason we may leave,
It's a large block which does not want anybody telling it what to do.
as is indeed your view I think,
I think so in cases where it is "One rule for all" regardless of geography,
climate (agric) or social history. One rule does not always work well in
all parts of Europe, geographically at least.
examples?
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .the EU is "them telling us", you do
ont see yourself as a european,
Yes. Although I don't feel strongly either way! It doesn't help when they
tell me I have to pay £80 for a passport
Thats entirely the **UK**s fault not the EU, the Shengen countries
don't show passports, we didnt join, surprise, surprise.
they are:-
Austria
Hungary
Norway
Belgium
Iceland
Poland
Czech Republic
Italy
Portugal
Denmark
Latvia
Slovakia
Estonia
Liechtenstein
Slovenia
Finland
Lithuania
Spain
France
Luxembourg
Sweden
Germany
Malta
Switzerland.
Greece
Netherlands
Post by Jane Gillett- rather stay at home! (Home being
where I don't have to pay money for identity).
As we refused to join Schengen, its hardly surprising we need a
document to show when you travel, you see that as unreasonable?
Post by Jane GillettBut it is partly, maybe even
mainly, because our govt doesn't act as though it is an effective part of
European govt other than sending "representatives" to their activities
*our* activities. How can we not be an effective part of Euro govt
when a commissioner is British?
what were all these doing at the most senior level of the EU?
Catherine Ashton
Leon Brittan
Stanley Clinton Davis, Baron Clinton-Davis
Arthur Cockfield, Baron Cockfield
Roy Jenkins
Neil Kinnock
Peter Mandelson
Bruce Millan
Chris Patten
Ivor Richard, Baron Richard
Christopher Soames, Baron Soames
George Thomson, Baron Thomson of Monifieth
Christopher Tugendhat, Baron Tugendhat
Post by Jane Gillett(expensive) for no apparent purpose
"no apparent purpose", are you joking?
Post by Jane Gillettso there's little in the way of a "live
and viable" connection.
of course there is. Just you and many others do not see reports of it
because of press bias and lack of interest
Post by Jane GillettIt just feels like putting your head in the yoke
for no obvious advantage.
increased trade with Europe is an obvoius advantage, ask the city if
it fancies not being in the EU and still being the banking hub it is
(our biggest earner), then theres is free movement of labour, its
reckoned to generate some thousands per head annually.
Post by Jane GillettGuess if somebody like Russia attacked we'd
become a battleground between R & US whether we were members or not.
that assumes (nuclear) war between US and USSR? WW1 and WW2 both
started without the US. Tanks may at this moment be rolling in the
Crimea, its not a matter of the standard outdated cold war scenario.
Russian or other expansionism may be Europes next problem.
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .part of it, as many Brits do not, now
in a more powerful bloc able to stop Russian expansionism and stand up
to China.
How do we or even Europe "stand up to them"? Favourable trading (tax)
conditions I guess.
guns and tanks. Vetos. United front, all the usual things.
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .The EU is not "them", it is "us".
OK. It's nothing to do with "people",
free movement of labour isnt about people? Jobs arent about people?
Security isnt about people? What would you expect it to be that it
isnt exactly?
Post by Jane Gillettit's politics, govts and legal
agreements which don't make sense in all places (see above).
what doesnt make sense? Remember much reported here about EU mad rules
is untrue.
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .My freinds daughter works in Madrid,
her boyfriend works in Germany, we have met them for dinner when in
Spain, your delivery man might be from Poland.
Fine. No problem. Makes life interesting.
Provided we're not obliged to live according to rules which work for them
but not for us.
They are us. What rules are not working?
Post by Jane GillettAND provided that if WE keep to the rules, which we generally do, then
those rules are equally enforced in all the other parts of Europe, which we
believe they are not, in agric at least.
in some places probably. Do you think the Germans follow the rules? Of
course they do. Many rules here are gold plating of EU law.
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .This is where Europe is
now, not Little Englands pretending we are "Great Britain" and a force
in the world all alone, defended by the English Channel.
Yes, the "british empire attitude" is slow to leave, I agree, but the point
is it isn't the total reason for people's lack of enthusiasm; some reasons
are real.
most are based on press lies
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .we
both hanker after lost empires and refuse to live in the real world of
not being superpowers.
Who <are> the "superpowers" now?
USA, China, obviously.
Not Russia? India?
no
Post by Jane GillettWhen does S.America rise to strength?
not soon.
Post by Jane GillettEmpires come and
go. And I get the impression that their lifetimes are getting shorter.
you have been reading Foundation and Empire again :-)
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .Then there is Turkey, wavering between westernised and Islamisised.
Characteristic of this era I guess.
Post by Mike.. . . .* we could of course be more united without half hearted Cameron & Co
The trouble with being enthusiastic is that it is very easy to slip into
mob rule;
Really? How would enthusuasm for Europe do that? I see no connection.
Post by Jane Gillettremember Reds under the Beds.
based on fear and paranoia, not enthusiasm.
There's sometimes not much difference.
opposites IMHO
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .Post by Jane GillettI reckon a healthy lack of
enthusiasm helps to keep things sane sometimes.
In the case of the EU, lack of enthusiasm keeps us ignorant and
powerless.
Agreed. But people feel that if we were not there there would be no case
for Euro-enthusiasm anyway. If they think about it at all ie.
Post by Mike.. . . .UKIP leader turned up once ever for farm & fisheries
debates IIRC (but claim expenses),
Behaviour of some politicians; as always was; up to other pols or us to
stamp on such.
Post by Mike.. . . .they love seeing rules developed
without a UK input to prove how bad the rules are,
Standard efficient political device for denigrating and thus getting rid of
what they don't want; give it a bad name so others will reject it. (Give a
dog a bad name...) Time honoured political behaviour. Not limited to any
particular bloc or nationality.
but still true in spades for UKIP, who else does that?
Post by Jane GillettPost by Mike.. . . .we constantly fail
to fully embrace the EU, how often do you see the British commisioner
mentined in our press, can you even name her?
Last first, no I can't. Don't remember commissioner saying anything
directly relevant to my life; ever.
We don't tell our press what to do - well, we do, by choosing what sells
newspapers.
large parts of our press are owned by anti european interests who
actively lie at us to get us to become /remain a tool of the USA.
--
Mike... . . . .